Chinese submarines thread

[tphuang]

Re: Chinese sub thread

This one is apparently from Pinkov.

分析中國最093型核潛水艦借鑒俄羅斯
2007-10-03 01:17:24 点击:128
分析中國最093型核潛水艦借鑒俄羅斯

中國時報 2007.10.02　 中央社

　最新一期加拿大「漢和防務評論」分析中國海軍最新公開的093型核動力攻擊潛水艦，指093型核潛船體設計明顯借鑒俄羅斯基洛級KILO 636造型，尾舵的設計方法繼承元級、宋級常規動力潛水艦，是俄式常規潛水艦的尾舵設計概念。

　漢和認為，從迄今為止公開的093型核潛圖片判斷，它已經開始服役。意味著二零零三年左右開始進行的降低噪音改良取得一些進展。093型核潛的出現意味著中國海軍今後將更加頻繁地出入第二島鏈，進入關島甚至夏威夷海區。

　可信的消息來源聲稱，二艘093核潛分別配備在北海艦隊、南海艦隊。形成南海艦隊裝備091G、093型核潛各一艘、北海艦隊裝備二艘091G、一艘093型核潛的態勢。總共五至六艘核動力攻擊潛水艦，總體實力超過英法。

　據報導，俄羅斯Rubin設計局專家在看過元級常規潛水艦圖片後，認為極大程度地借鑒了KILO和Amur兩型俄式潛水艦的設計思路，093型核潛的情況也基本相同。因此，093型並未予以人們深刻印象。

　分析研判，093型潛艦採用俄羅斯傳統的雙殼船體，呈水滴式。艦上沒有發現垂直導彈發射器，意味著所有的武器都是經過魚雷管發射。總體上的感覺是093型核潛與現代俄歐美的核潛水艦、常規動力潛水艦在設計上依然存在相當的技術差距。

　俄羅斯885核動力攻擊潛水艦採用八具垂直發射系統，用於安裝SS-N-27。093型艦的落後可能是中國急於設計新一代的095型核動力攻擊潛水艦的主要原因。中國在水面艦上也沒有安裝垂直發射的艦對艦導彈或者遠端巡航導彈系統。

　漢和創辦人平可夫指出，俄羅斯Rubin設計局已多次澄清從未幫助過中國人設計戰略核潛水艦、核動力攻擊潛水艦。中國也沒有邀請俄方參與這些工程設計。因此，比較合理的解釋是中國詳細研究基洛KILO877/636後自行設計。

Google translation.


Most of China's 093 nuclear-diving vessels from Russia
Click on 2007-10-03 01:17:24: 128
Most of China's 093 nuclear-diving vessels from Russia

The China Times 2007.10.02 CNA

The latest one in Canada, "commented Han and defense" of the Chinese Navy's newest open-093 nuclear-powered attack dive ship that 093 - type nuclear submarine hull design significantly from 636 freighting Russian Kilo-class modeling, design succession tail-yuan, Song-class conventional diving vessel, Russian type of conventional diving the ship rudder design concept.

Han and that, so far from the open-093 nuclear submarine Photo judgment, it has begun service. That began in 2003 about the noise reduction improvements achieved some progress. 093 nuclear submarine of the Chinese Navy in the future will mean more frequent access to the second island chain, or even enter Guam Hawaii waters.

Credible sources claimed that two were equipped with 093 nuclear submarine in the North Sea Fleet, the South China Sea Fleet. Formation of the South China Sea Fleet and equipment 091G, 093 nuclear submarine of a type, the North Sea Fleet of two 091G equipment, a 093 - type nuclear submarine posture. A total of five to six nuclear-powered attack diving vessel, the overall strength over the British and French.

According to reports, Russian experts in the Rubin Design Bureau seen yuan-diving vessels conventional images, that great extent from the freighting and peeling two Russian type of diving ship design ideas, 093 nuclear submarine of the situation is basically the same. Therefore, 093 people - not to be impressed.

Analysis reckons that 093 of the Russian submarines using traditional double-hull ship, was of droplets. Ship found no vertical missile launchers, means that all the weapons are a torpedo tube launch. The overall impression is 093 nuclear submarine of Russia, Europe and the United States with modern nuclear diving ships, conventional diving ship design still exists considerable technological gap.

885 Russian nuclear attack by diving ship eight vertical launch system, for the installation of SS-N-27. 093 of the ship is eager to be behind the design of a new generation of 095 nuclear-powered attack the main reason for the diving vessel. The Chinese ship in the water nor the installation of vertical launch missile or ship-to-ship cruise missile system remotely.

Han and founder Pinkov that Russia Rubin Design Bureau has repeatedly clarified never helped the Chinese diving design strategic nuclear ships, nuclear-powered attack vessel diving. China has not invited Russian participation in the design of these projects. Therefore, a more reasonable explanation is that the Chinese Kilo KILO877/636 after a detailed study was designed.

yeah, I have this article. 093 getting design assistance from Kilo. That's a new low even for PKF.

 

[crobato]

Re: Chinese sub thread

PKF fails to realize that the Hans and the Xia were all in fact, traditional double hull designs, with bow mounted torpedo tubes firing through a hemispherically shaped bow. That's the Kilo's classic features, but the Hans and the Xia all predate before China ever had a single Kilo by at least a decade.

Western submarines are all single hulled designs except for the much later Seawolf and Virginia classes. So choosing double hull designs for the Han and the Xia had a Russian inspired idea to it (all Russian designs since the Victors had been double hulled) but without any Russian and Western design assistance, since all this is conceived and executed during the Cold War between the PRC and the Soviet Union.

093's double hull design is apparently evolved from the Han and appears to be the "classic" double hull design with all the ballast tanks formed between the outer hull and the inner hull. Though the Yuan's hull design may in fact be inspired from the Kilo because in fact, the Kilo's hull design is more of a hybrid. In a single hull design, the buoyancy/ballast tank is located above the pressure hull which creates this structure on the back of the sub. In a double hull design, ballast tanks form between the outer and the inner hulls. The Kilo appears to vary from classic Soviet designs like the Victors and Akulas with ballast tanks formed by the double hull design, and yet has upper stern and bow ballast tanks like a single hull design. The Yuan appears to take this design from the Kilo with having double hull ballast tanks plus upper bow and upper stern ballast tanks, but the upper tanks are even larger and more pronounced, adding more reserve buoyancy. This also creates the humpback shape of the sub.

On the bottom is the familiar picture of the Xia in Google Earth taken in 2005. Its been used to compare with the 094, but people fail to realize that in examining this picture closely, some details are revealed.

We all know that based on this picture, the missile tubes appear to be in the process of being changed. What the picture also tells is that the upper bow sensors and sonars are all opened up, indicating these are also being changed. Behind the missile compartment section, the reactor and powerplant compartment are all opened up, obviously being changed as well. The propeller is also shrouded, suggesting that the propeller may be changed, likely to be skewed design, though a pumpjet may also be a more remote possibility.

My own conclusion is that the Xia is being modernized, perhaps looking to add a dozen more years of service.

 

[crobato]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Google Earth has an update. The image on Huludao has now changed. The shocker appears that there are two 092s in that image. The second 092 appears to have a pumpjet.

 

[Violet Oboe]

Re: Chinese sub thread

So we can conclude that the existence of at least two Xia's (type 092 + 092 mod?) is confirmed?

Rumours were getting more and more substantiated during the last couple of years that more than the famous ´single Xia´exists but interestingly confirmation was obviously very late to materialize...

Crobato, I agree with your analysis (definitely no 094 here...) but what exactly makes you suspect that the second sub has a pumpjet?

 

[tphuang]

Re: Chinese sub thread

So we can conclude that the existence of at least two Xia's (type 092 + 092 mod?) is confirmed?

Rumours were getting more and more substantiated during the last couple of years that more than the famous ´single Xia´exists but interestingly confirmation was obviously very late to materialize...

Crobato, I agree with your analysis (definitely no 094 here...) but what exactly makes you suspect that the second sub has a pumpjet?

i'm guessing by the wider tail?

Anyhow, definitely seems like all the speculations are right. There are far more out there than people think. It kinds of make me wonder if there are more of 091s out there than the first 5. Maybe they actually built new 091Gs.

 

[crobato]

Re: Chinese sub thread

I made a comparo sizes of the subs, and the ones in Huludao are bigger than the Xia and approximately as big as the 094 in Dalian. I presume now they're not new Xias but new Jins. That makes the last sub even more interesting as it is longer than the 094 in Dalian. The more I look at it, I'm more convinced that it is a cylindrical structure on the back of the tail and that fits the description of a pumpjet.

Even if both are 094s, I have a feeling that both are not the same 094 in Dalian. The Dalian 094 had a shiny and very visible blow hole before the sail and these two subs don't have a blowhole of the same design.

 

[Roger604]

Re: Chinese sub thread

^ All three on the bottom look the same length to me. And yes that cylindrical apparatus looks very interesting.

I thought we had concluded the one in Dalian is a Type 092G

It would be surprising if there are already 3+ Type 094's!

 

[sturmstiger]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Crobato:
Is the tube-shaped thing at the tail of lower sub the "pump-jet" you are talking about? Using Seawolf or Virginia's pump-jet as a reference, that thing appears way too thin. Also, if you take a look at the aerial images of Seawolf or Virginia subs tied at piers in Groton (using MSN Live Maps), you actually can't see the pump-jet at all.

On the other hand, the tails of the two subs definitely look different, and I also have no clue of what that tube/cylinder might be. Quite a few classes of Soviet attack subs feature a large housing for towed-sonar on the tail fin, but I have seen no photo of Chinese sub with that feature. Any ideas?

 

[crobato]

Re: Chinese sub thread

The subs appear high on the water, probably empty and light. I've seen pics of subs high enough in the water that part of their props come up. As to being too thin, I don't think it is. Rather its in the right dimensions.

The towed array sonars the Soviets use on subs like the tails of the Akulas and Victor IIIs, are all teardrop shape for streamlining. The tube would have been draggy. Also the the TAS is located on top of the ventral fin, and on a nuclear sub, this fin tends to be tall and high above the water. The tube as you can see has distinct shadows that are right on the water line and does not cast a tall shadow like the Russian TAS on the tail of the Akula. The TAS would have been higher than the upper hull line, but this tube is right in the middle bore of the sub. Look at the Xia there and see where the propeller is in relation to the upper hull line.

 

[crobato]

Re: Chinese sub thread

^ All three on the bottom look the same length to me. And yes that cylindrical apparatus looks very interesting.

I thought we had concluded the one in Dalian is a Type 092G

It would be surprising if there are already 3+ Type 094's!

You can make the conclusion that all three new subs are 092G or they're 094. The numbers are nothing but labels. The bottomline is that there are new Chinese boomers out there.

I'm adding a new comparison, all subs viewed at 1000 feet height. The Huludao subs appear slightly longer than the one in Dalian.