Chinese submarines thread

[tphuang]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Was the developmental goal reached? I haven't seen much about the Yu series in general.

if what I've been reading on Chinese bbs is correct, then the Yu series is doing pretty well and reached the set out goals. So, they have Yu-3A for the older subs, Yu-6 for the newer subs and Yu-7 as the light torpedo. Mind you, we have seen many pictures of Yu-6 recently being loaded onto Song. It's clear that Song is not using any of the Russian torpedoes (which simply don't have the kinetic performance of Mk-48). Something like Yu-6 is really desperately needed against American nuclear subs and carriers. Meaning if you are within 10 nm of one, you have the weapon that can chase it down.

 

[tphuang]

Re: Chinese sub thread

more document on this, some additional information.

中国日报网环球在线消息：十年磨一剑，2005年，这一重点型号项目在完成了上百次的各种试验后获得成功，被国家定型立项，当年便形成了批生产能力。

今年2月底，在北京召开的国家2006年科技进步奖励大会上，在陕军工单位——中国船舶重工集团公司705研究所的总设计师董春鹏荣获国家科技进步一等奖。作为国家某重点型号研制开发的总设计师，董春鹏打破国外技术封锁，为我国水下兵器发展探索出了新路。

董春鹏参与和领导的多种重点型号项目，分别获得了国家科技进步一等奖，中国国防科工委、中国船舶重工集团公司特等奖，其他科研成果分别获省部级科技进步一、二等奖。特别是由他主持设计的国家某重点型号科研项目，从项目立项到产品设计、研制到最终试验成功，走过了十年的漫长历程，这一依靠自主创新完成的重大科研项目，总体性能达到了国际先进水平，创造出了我国在该技术领域的四个第一，走出了一条中国特色自主创新的道路，为实现我国海军现代化建设和水下武器装备技术创新做出了重大贡献。

1966年董春鹏以优异的成绩从中国科技大学毕业，来到位于西安的中国船舶重工集团公司705研究所工作。1995年，国家某重点型号项目历经坎坷终于立项。它是打破国外高技术封锁，实现我国水下武器装备行业跨越式发展的研制项目。其科研需求非常迫切，而且所采用的新技术占到三分之二以上。当时国内预研基础非常薄弱，对外引进难度和风险很大，该型号能否研制成功，一时间成为业内议论的焦点。

董春鹏受命于这个关键时刻，他怀着对祖国的挚爱，对事业的追求，以强烈的忧患意识承担了这一高性能重点项目研制任务。他说：“我的人生坐标就应该定位在水下武器装备行业打翻身仗的艰苦历程上。”此后的十年里，他一直奋斗在崎岖的征途上：没有假日，加班加点地学习、工作，熟悉各系统的专业技术，批阅成百上千份图纸文件，思考和决策许多重大技术问题……他像陀螺一样，不停地运转着。就这样，十年如一日，他主持完成了该型号的方案论证、工程设计、工程研制、设计定型等各个阶段的工作。

在长期从事型号研制工作中，董春鹏建立了一套“严格科研程序”和“严格质量管理”办法，保证型号研制不出反复，一次成功。在研制工作中，常常发生技术、进度和质量的冲突，每当出现这种情况，他始终坚持既定程序，一丝不苟。某型号产品进入调试、试验阶段后，时间紧、任务重，董春鹏要求按科研程序，提出“陆上台架试验不完成，暴露的问题不解决，不能下水。”在各方面的支持下，试验得以实现，通过试验暴露出的问题，经调整、修改后得到解决，在实航试验中，启动点火正常。

对科研中暴露的问题，董春鹏从来不回避，而是积极寻求解决问题的最佳方案。在该型号进入正样研制后，他带领全体研制人员进一步扎实工作，精心组织，顽强攻关，在生产、装配、调试等各个环节中解决了大量的技术问题。考虑到初样产品的数量少，实航试验不够充分，董春鹏提出在定型试验前增加科研性试验，以进一步暴露和解决问题，并验证对初样产品遗留问题所采取的技术改进措施的有效性。通过他的努力，争取到上级领导的同意，在湖上定型试验前进行科研性试验，在海上定型试验前进行预试。定型试验的整个过程表明，这项措施是完全正确的，保证了海上定型试验的顺利进行和成功。

国家某重点型号的研制成功，再一次证明了我国科技人员完全有能力打破西方高技术封锁，依靠自己的力量，走出一条自主创新的道路。由董春鹏带领的科技创新团队，在该型号研制中，突破了一系列关键技术难关，取得重大自主创新知识产权18项，实现了我国水下武器装备技术的重大跨越。党和国家领导人在考察705研究所时，对董春鹏带领的科技创新团队，为提高我国水下武器装备研制水平所做的开创性贡献给予了高度赞扬。

在技术攻关中，由董春鹏提出的研制试验载体，开展关键技术实航攻关试验方案，成功运用于型号的多项研究中，这些研究成果保证了型号一次发射成功，并获得了省部级科技进步二等奖；在工程设计中，由他主持编制的八个总体设计文件提出的一系列程序和方法，对型号研究起到了很好的指导作用；在工程研制中，由他提出的将半实物仿真技术引进软件联调的新方法，为型号软件集成与测试开拓了一项新技术。

在从事工程型号研制实践之余，董春鹏还紧密跟踪世界水下武器装备先进技术，并注重将自己从事的型号研究创新成果升华为理论，发表了数十篇有关弹道优化设计的目标、弹道参数的定义等高质量的论文，填补了型号设计的空白。（来源：陕西日报）

the project apparently started in 1995 and the development is finished in 2005. It said after this, the total capability of the torpedo has reached a leading position in the world. Claims to break the Western technological embargo against China by developing indigenously.

 

[crobato]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Well basically a pump jet is a ducted propeller. That is a propeller enclosed inside a ducted housing. What we see at the end of most torpedoes is a pump jet which you can easily see from all the pictures above. A pump jet submarine is one whose end would actually look like the end of any of the torpedoes above. So its not really a hard technology to implement.

 

[tphuang]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Well basically a pump jet is a ducted propeller. That is a propeller enclosed inside a ducted housing. What we see at the end of most torpedoes is a pump jet which you can easily see from all the pictures above. A pump jet submarine is one whose end would actually look like the end of any of the torpedoes above. So its not really a hard technology to implement.

really? so, anything with a duct is pump jet? even if it looks like it has a 4 or 5 blade propeller in there?

this is interesting, found regarding sonar on different Chinese subs

093二代攻击核潜艇上的舷侧阵声呐（菜鸟转贴，不喜勿入，发重请删除）

经海军批准，将由中国科学院声学所设计，613厂生产262A声呐，替换我国老式33艇上的105声呐；用262B声呐，替换我国09-I、09-II核潜艇上的603、604声呐；用262C声呐装备新型035G常规潜艇。

李启虎

在科学技术方面的主要成就、贡献与道德学风：

李启虎同志是我国著名的水声信号处理专家和声呐设计专家，在水声信号处理、声呐设计领域内作出了系统的、创造性的成就和重大贡献。在科学技术方面的主要贡献概况如下：


1．潜艇用综合声呐研究

他从1981年开始参加H/SQ2-262潜艇综合声呐原理样机的设计，1984年开始负责262声呐装艇正样的总体设计。1987年通过陆上鉴定。 1990年通过海军军工产品定型委员会的设计定型并开始批量生产，装备部队。目前已生产9台。在该机的设计中首次采用空腔后档基阵、多路过采样、疏排阵、时间压缩式长延迟线、二次积累、背景均衡和故障自检等高新技术，使该机已成为我国035型潜艇的主要声呐装备。获1992年国家科技进步一等（排名第二）。装备该机的潜艇在由江泽民主席、刘华清付主席检阅的“95-神威”全军演习中，性能优良，受到海军领导机关好评。

1991年在院军工委的大力支持下，他负责对262声呐进行技术改造，并取得突破，受到海军和中船总公司的好评。该声响所采用的类Kalman滤波、自适应噪改朝换声抵消、最佳线性预测等技术使声呐具有鱼雷报警、多目标自动跟踪、低频线谱检测等功能。经海军批准，将由中国科学院声学所设计，613厂生产 262A声呐，替换我国老式33艇上的105声呐；用262B声呐，替换我国09-I、09-II核潜艇上的603、604声呐；用262C声呐装备新型 035G常规潜艇。这对提高我国现役声呐的水平，增强反潜力量具有重大意义。


2．拖曳式线列阵警戒侦察声呐的研制

他从1987年开始负责国防科工委拖曳式线列阵声响呐预研和院重大军工项目拖曳式线列阵声呐原理样研制。从1990年开始，担任国家计委、总对重点项目 H/SJG-208声呐总设计师。在208声呐设计中采用FIR滤波、RAM动态波束成形、升采样率运算、自适应噪声抵消、灰度变换算法、语音报警、目标识别专家系统等高新技术。该机已完成原理样机，并于1997年3月在北海进行海试，取得了满意的结果，准备生产正样装备我国电子侦察船。

拖曳式线列阵声响的研制已获中船总公司科技进步二等奖一次，中国科学院科技进步二等奖一次（排名均为第1）。


3．参加我国沿海固定式反潜预警体系的研究

李启虎同志自1963年到声学所参加工作以来，即从事001岸用声呐的研制，参加决体方案设计和海上投放、施工和实验工作。先后参加或负责从北海至南海的 4个部的施工和组建工作，同时参加我国第一台自适应波束成形计算机的设计和湖试。其中001岸用声呐站的研究获全国科技大会奖（未排名，不是负责人）；自适应波束成形计算机获中科院科技进步一等奖（排名第3）。


4．H/SQG-04被动测距声呐多功能信号处理系统研制。

1987年他主持设计了我国第一台潜艇用被动测距声呐的我功能信号处理机的研制。第一次把广义互谱法测延时的算法用于水下目标的被动测距，同时在信号处理机中采用一次相关内插、二次相关、互谱法等多种不同的测延时方法和数据过滤方法，使我国被动测距声呐进入国际先进水平，该声呐已开始装备我国新研制的 039潜艇。

多功能信号处理机获1990年中科院科技进步三等奖（排名第1）。


5．09-III核潜艇舷侧线列阵声呐研制

1994年开始，李启虎同志负责声学所的舷侧线列阵声呐预研工作，受到国防科工委和海军的关注。 1990年上组机关决定在09-III新型核潜艇上装备舷侧阵声呐（H/SQG-207声呐），并决定由中船总公司715所和声学所组成国家队进行联合攻关，由他担任207声呐的副总设计师。

在207声呐的预研过程中，他提出时变自适应噪声抵消技术，用于抵消本艇的振动噪声，湖试结果良好。目前正准备用09-I核潜艇进行样机海试。

207声呐的研制被中央军委确定为09-III核潜艇两项关键技术之一。它的研制将为我国二次核打击力量和台湾海峡的斗争起重要作用。



6．水声信号处理方法和声呐设计理论研究

李启虎同志参加工作30多年，一直从事水声信号处理理论和应用的研究。在从事声呐的设计过程中，他善于把信号处理理论结合我国浅海声传播的特点，创造性地解决疑难问题，具有很强的攻关能力。如1967年001岸站水下基阵失效，他和课题组同志一起攻关半年，终于提出在水下70米深的基阵维修方案，使柏岚子站正常工作。

他曾经在国内外杂志发表论文90多篇，在国外有一定声誉。1992年北在西洋公约组织NATO高级研究所主席，美国卡耐基梅隆大学教授MOURA曾邀请他参加会议，并提供旅费。这是中国学者第一次得到NATO的邀请。1996年欧洲水声会议和水下防务会议又提供路费邀请他参加会议，并担任分组主席。

1985年他发表专著“声呐信号处理引论”这是我国该领域的第一本著作。此外，他还撰写了大约110篇军工秘密报告。


李启虎同志的研究工作领域覆盖了岸用声呐、水面舰艇、潜艇、远程预警声呐的各个方面。李启虎同志为我国海军电子装备现代化作出了突出贡献。

1992年曾作为优秀科学家代表受到江泽民、李鹏等党和国家领导人的接见。

李启虎同志自参加工作以来获国家科技进步一等奖一次（排名2）；中科院科技进步一等奖二次（排名2、3），二等奖一次（排名1）；中船总公司科技进步一等奖一次（排名2），二等奖一次（排名1），李启虎同志培养硕士研究生20名，博士研究生7名。

李启虎同志学风正派，科研态度严谨，敬业精神强，无私地为我国水声学研究和国防水声装备现代化作贡献。


红色刀锋

you can find article here.

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The bold part basically says the 093 uses a flank array called H/SQG-207 and it started development in the 90s. They test it on 091 and it's one of the two major development programs for 093.

Also mentionned some other major projects, like H/SQG-04 passive sonar which is used 039

And also the H/SJG-208 towed linear array sonar and it says to be used one elint ship?

 

[crobato]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Yes, even if it looks like it has a propeller in there, its technically a pump jet if the propeller and the water flow is encased in a duct. it does not look like a hard technology to implement, even compared to asymmetrical screws which actually looks harder. Another form of pump jet is a centrifugal pump or turbine enclosed in a duct and that does not look hard either.

The idea in making propellers quieter is to prevent the onset of supercavitation, which in more simpler terms, prevent it from making bubbles. There is a threshhold which this is reached. Once it does, you're making noises from the bubbles, and other things also start to happen. The bubbles does affect how the sub is moved, and the turbulence of the bubbles also help erode the propeller faster.

So, with newer propulsion designs, you are trying to do two things to prevent cavitation. Get the same speed while turning the screws much slower. With less mechanical revolutions, you also make less noise. The second is to push the cavitation threshold higher.

While simple as it may sounds, the hydrodynamics and how it will shape the duct and the screws can be quite complex.

 

[Pointblank]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Yes, even if it looks like it has a propeller in there, its technically a pump jet if the propeller and the water flow is encased in a duct. it does not look like a hard technology to implement, even compared to asymmetrical screws which actually looks harder. Another form of pump jet is a centrifugal pump or turbine enclosed in a duct and that does not look hard either.

The idea in making propellers quieter is to prevent the onset of supercavitation, which in more simpler terms, prevent it from making bubbles. There is a threshhold which this is reached. Once it does, you're making noises from the bubbles, and other things also start to happen. The bubbles does affect how the sub is moved, and the turbulence of the bubbles also help erode the propeller faster.

So, with newer propulsion designs, you are trying to do two things to prevent cavitation. Get the same speed while turning the screws much slower. With less mechanical revolutions, you also make less noise. The second is to push the cavitation threshold higher.

While simple as it may sounds, the hydrodynamics and how it will shape the duct and the screws can be quite complex.

There is also the issue of scale; scaling up for something that is radically larger will pose problems during development. What might work in a miniature may not work on a full sized ship.

 

[crobato]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Here is my template of what the future Chinese SSN should be. Rather than being a "dream" this is only a logical result of all current design trends. It is intended to be general and would not be difficult to produce. I like to see how my template would compare in the future when more news and details about the next generation of Chinese SSNs show up.

1. The trend now is having a structure more similar to a mini SSBN, with VLS launch tubes for cruise missiles or antiship missiles.

2. The PLAN is actually better served by an SSGN type rather than SSBMs. An extended version of the new sub can hold more VLS cells and can serve as an "arsenal" ship-sub. The design should be modular, so it would not be difficult to produce other family members to this sub, including an SSBN version.

3. Active bow sonar, passive flank sonars, and not the least, a TAS.

4. I like to see the use of a pump jet propulsion.

5. This part is probably the most technologically challenging of all, which is to use an HTGR reactor. While not necessarily, earlier versions of the sub can make do with pressurized water reactors.

6. Better hydroplaning design. The sub should try to produce a better integral blend between the sail and the rest of the hull.

7. The issue between sail vs. bow mounted dive planes is always subject to debate. But if China wants to join the Artic race and make some claim over there, I would prefer bow mounted planes, since its easier to ice break using a plane less sail.

 

[crobato]

Re: Chinese sub thread

I have to change my opinion on the sub model on the tank shown in the 80th anniversary PLA exhibit. The model is not a 091 mod but a 093. People originally thought it was the 091 mod because they assumed the 093 would have a plane less sail, like the 093 pics shown in the exhibit. Notwithstanding that later on, pics of the 093 coming out indeed showing a sub with diving planes on the sail.

I concluded that this is a 093 model due to the shape of the hull, the shape of the sail which is completely square, and the disrupted sink hole pattern which are drawn like etched on the side of the model.

So, why did the PLA show a 093 model with planes on the sail, while photos and videos of a sub without? There is no motive to PS the planes out, considering the model is shown.

I am thinking that there is indeed two kinds of 093, an earlier form with the planes on teh sail, followed by a revised form without planes on the sail and with a more flattened back.

 

[Roger604]

Re: Chinese sub thread

1. The trend now is having a structure more similar to a mini SSBN, with VLS launch tubes for cruise missiles or antiship missiles.

2. The PLAN is actually better served by an SSGN type rather than SSBMs. An extended version of the new sub can hold more VLS cells and can serve as an "arsenal" ship-sub. The design should be modular, so it would not be difficult to produce other family members to this sub, including an SSBN version.

I think you're 100% right. You can save time and money by having a unified structure that can be adapted to a nuclear deterrent role, an anti-surface attack role or a land attack role. All you need are modular VLS arrangements.

If the Type 95/96 are pump jet based and take advantage of the latest quieting technology seen in the Seawolf/Virginia or the Severodvinsk and Borei, it would definitely be a world class vessel.

6. Better hydroplaning design. The sub should try to produce a better integral blend between the sail and the rest of the hull.

From the speculative photos of the next conventional submarine, it looks like this technology is now mastered.

 

[daveman]

Re: Chinese sub thread

...If the Type 95/96 are pump jet based and take advantage of the latest quieting technology seen in the Seawolf/Virginia or the Severodvinsk and Borei...

Such as? I thought that kind of quieting know-how is top-top-secret material?