Chinese submarines thread
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sinowarrior
Junior Member
Re: Chinese sub thread
concept definition should already existed after 092 was launched, since it was a two step job. Xia was meant to be a fleet in being, whereas 094 were the follow up that supposed to do the real combat duty.
concept definition should already existed after 092 was launched, since it was a two step job. Xia was meant to be a fleet in being, whereas 094 were the follow up that supposed to do the real combat duty.
Violet Oboe
Junior Member
Re: Chinese sub thread
AFAIK Deng Xiaoping never cancelled SSN/SSBN first generation follow on projects outright but relegated them to sequential lower priority in two steps 1985 and 1988.
The turmoil and subsequent rectification and stabilization after the 6/4 '89 incident also caused a certain period of transition in many major miltech and scientific projects (e.g. the chinese space program came to complete halt in 1990 with no orbital launch for 13 months!). Nevertheless things came on line again in 1991/92 and the manned space program as project 921 was given official go ahead against some opposition form Deng and his supporters.
Obviously both Li Peng and Jiang Zemin reinitiated or reinforced major miltech programs after Deng Xiaoping was mainly incapacitated after late '92 and was not able anymore to interfere into their decisions directly. :china:
So indeed project 094 was probably fully back in business around '92-'93 and this would neatly correspond with a launching date of 2001 for the lead ship.
AFAIK Deng Xiaoping never cancelled SSN/SSBN first generation follow on projects outright but relegated them to sequential lower priority in two steps 1985 and 1988.
The turmoil and subsequent rectification and stabilization after the 6/4 '89 incident also caused a certain period of transition in many major miltech and scientific projects (e.g. the chinese space program came to complete halt in 1990 with no orbital launch for 13 months!). Nevertheless things came on line again in 1991/92 and the manned space program as project 921 was given official go ahead against some opposition form Deng and his supporters.
Obviously both Li Peng and Jiang Zemin reinitiated or reinforced major miltech programs after Deng Xiaoping was mainly incapacitated after late '92 and was not able anymore to interfere into their decisions directly. :china:
So indeed project 094 was probably fully back in business around '92-'93 and this would neatly correspond with a launching date of 2001 for the lead ship.
Re: Chinese sub thread
The program was indeed stoped, read chief designer Huang's interview. The interview was done in 2005, note that he said "if the program had not been stoped for such long, we would not lag so much behind US".
I am pretty sure he knows how 094 is like(already in sea probably) and how it will be compared with Ohio.
两个试验成功后，聂力问我有什么感想，我说：“一喜一忧”。当时冷战刚刚结束，很多军工项目都在下马。我高兴因为我打成功了，但大概明天我们就失业了。如果打不成功，我们还可以再吃几年饭，因为你们还会投资。
聂力听完也哭笑不得。果然，打成功后，我们项目就下马了，一下就是20几年。
20几年过去，美国走了多少型号，冷战结束，战争的危险并没消失。美国(包括日本) 的科研工作一点没放松，而我们的科研生产都断线了。团队解散，很多人才都流失了。如果我们也像美日那样，技术抓的很紧，我们的技术水平不会是现在这个样子，就算不超过美国，也至少不会和他差这么远。
The program was indeed stoped, read chief designer Huang's interview. The interview was done in 2005, note that he said "if the program had not been stoped for such long, we would not lag so much behind US".
I am pretty sure he knows how 094 is like(already in sea probably) and how it will be compared with Ohio.
两个试验成功后，聂力问我有什么感想，我说：“一喜一忧”。当时冷战刚刚结束，很多军工项目都在下马。我高兴因为我打成功了，但大概明天我们就失业了。如果打不成功，我们还可以再吃几年饭，因为你们还会投资。
聂力听完也哭笑不得。果然，打成功后，我们项目就下马了，一下就是20几年。
20几年过去，美国走了多少型号，冷战结束，战争的危险并没消失。美国(包括日本) 的科研工作一点没放松，而我们的科研生产都断线了。团队解散，很多人才都流失了。如果我们也像美日那样，技术抓的很紧，我们的技术水平不会是现在这个样子，就算不超过美国，也至少不会和他差这么远。
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Violet Oboe
Junior Member
Re: Chinese sub thread
Even some recent ´naval experts´ books on PLAN are obviously selling lemons ... thanks for the source fishhead!
Nevertheless the decisions of Jiang Zemin seem to be timely and correct in hindsight and history will probably in two or three decades herald him as the leader who put China on the trajectory to global power against heavy odds.
(...may be most people have underestimated Jiang Zemin but he made his job quite well and everyone who is without any fault should throw the first stone now! )
Even some recent ´naval experts´ books on PLAN are obviously selling lemons
... thanks for the source fishhead!Nevertheless the decisions of Jiang Zemin seem to be timely and correct in hindsight and history will probably in two or three decades herald him as the leader who put China on the trajectory to global power against heavy odds.
(...may be most people have underestimated Jiang Zemin but he made his job quite well and everyone who is without any fault should throw the first stone now!
)
Roger604
Senior Member
Re: Chinese sub thread
Alternatively, he could mean that Type 094 is at the same level as Ohio, but they would have had the same 6-7 years earlier if the program had not been stopped. Or it could mean Type 094 is far behind the Virginia.
You can't really draw any conclusions from this. I think the fact Type 094 was mentioned in the same sentence as J-10 speaks volumes since J-10 has succeeded far beyond anybody's expectations.
Alternatively, he could mean that Type 094 is at the same level as Ohio, but they would have had the same 6-7 years earlier if the program had not been stopped. Or it could mean Type 094 is far behind the Virginia.
You can't really draw any conclusions from this. I think the fact Type 094 was mentioned in the same sentence as J-10 speaks volumes since J-10 has succeeded far beyond anybody's expectations.
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Re: Chinese sub thread
It looks kind of odd to me when I read Mr. Huang's interview, and he is called "chief designer". This only happened in recent couple of years, before that another guy, Mr. Peng was called chief designer of Chinese nuclear subs. I remember in early 1990 there was an interview with Mr. Peng and since then Peng was always refered to as chief designer.
Why this? I think Mr. Peng was actually the chief designer of 092, many sources has said that and Mr. Peng left the military program around 1988, he is the main program leader of Daya nuclear power generator. Mr. Huang was 094's chief designer, after Peng left the program. So both are correctly called "chief designer" but Huang is still not allowed to speak about 094 then he talked a lot about 092.
In Chinese tradition, you're not allowed to speak to reporters when you're in the program, but you can only after the program is finished and it's a way of respect to those making great contributions. The interview was conducted in 2005 and that gives the hint of progress of 094 program.
I am not surprise to see another "chief designer" popped out in another 5 years, and he will talk about 094.
It looks kind of odd to me when I read Mr. Huang's interview, and he is called "chief designer". This only happened in recent couple of years, before that another guy, Mr. Peng was called chief designer of Chinese nuclear subs. I remember in early 1990 there was an interview with Mr. Peng and since then Peng was always refered to as chief designer.
Why this? I think Mr. Peng was actually the chief designer of 092, many sources has said that and Mr. Peng left the military program around 1988, he is the main program leader of Daya nuclear power generator. Mr. Huang was 094's chief designer, after Peng left the program. So both are correctly called "chief designer" but Huang is still not allowed to speak about 094 then he talked a lot about 092.
In Chinese tradition, you're not allowed to speak to reporters when you're in the program, but you can only after the program is finished and it's a way of respect to those making great contributions. The interview was conducted in 2005 and that gives the hint of progress of 094 program.
I am not surprise to see another "chief designer" popped out in another 5 years, and he will talk about 094.
sinowarrior
Junior Member
Re: Chinese sub thread
I kind of doubt the validity of this report, from my information the entire 094 project was neither cancelled nor postponed, the funding and relevant subsystems were always given priority over other navy project. It was true during Deng’s time a considerable amount of defence projects were cancelled, but it was made clear that certain top priority project will be kept at full speed to maintain at least a parity with Western competitors.
As for no orbital launch during the 90, it is not the lack of funding, but due the restructuring of the COSTIND , were Nie Li and her husband gained the position of commissioner and vice commissioner, and also bit of internal struggle ensure during that timeframe.
I kind of doubt the validity of this report, from my information the entire 094 project was neither cancelled nor postponed, the funding and relevant subsystems were always given priority over other navy project. It was true during Deng’s time a considerable amount of defence projects were cancelled, but it was made clear that certain top priority project will be kept at full speed to maintain at least a parity with Western competitors.
As for no orbital launch during the 90, it is not the lack of funding, but due the restructuring of the COSTIND , were Nie Li and her husband gained the position of commissioner and vice commissioner, and also bit of internal struggle ensure during that timeframe.
Violet Oboe
Junior Member
Re: Chinese sub thread
Well, sinowarrior that is the story you can read in the books of geniusses like Lewis, Hua, Erickson Goldstein, Murray but unfortunately sometimes their ´knowledge´appears to be more confabulation than hard fact.
Indeed there seems to have been a period between 1985/88-1992 during which the follow on projects (2nd generation SSN/SSBN 093/094) came to a virtual standstill for some reason still publicly unknown. (Most probable: political infighting (influence of Deng), financial restraints (inflation and high external debts in the late 80's (Yen credit disaster!)), organizational problems (6/4 '89 incident, overaged cadres))
Well, sinowarrior that is the story you can read in the books of geniusses like Lewis, Hua, Erickson Goldstein, Murray but unfortunately sometimes their ´knowledge´appears to be more confabulation than hard fact.
Indeed there seems to have been a period between 1985/88-1992 during which the follow on projects (2nd generation SSN/SSBN 093/094) came to a virtual standstill for some reason still publicly unknown. (Most probable: political infighting (influence of Deng), financial restraints (inflation and high external debts in the late 80's (Yen credit disaster!)), organizational problems (6/4 '89 incident, overaged cadres))
Re: Chinese sub thread
According to PLAN commander Admiral Liu Huaqing's biography, the "new" generation of nuclear sub program started in 1994. I can tell they started 093 first, so 094 program might be couple of years later.
It's in middle of 1990.
1994年，根据江主席指示，中央军委、中央专委决定开始新一代核潜艇的研制工作。看到核潜艇事业后继有人，后继有艇，我也就放心了。
According to PLAN commander Admiral Liu Huaqing's biography, the "new" generation of nuclear sub program started in 1994. I can tell they started 093 first, so 094 program might be couple of years later.
It's in middle of 1990.
1994年，根据江主席指示，中央军委、中央专委决定开始新一代核潜艇的研制工作。看到核潜艇事业后继有人，后继有艇，我也就放心了。
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