Chinese submarines thread

[MIGleader]

Re: Chinese sub thread

ADVANTAGE foe western subs

silent due to beter water cooled reactor tech

better sonar

ADVANTAGE for RUSSIAN style subs

high speed

greater max depth

greater weapon load


for the attack sserinoal the commander might try to shut off his engine dive to 300meter and wait


idea behind the wolf pack is to try to overpower the defence with more subs so its the same thing today

and apparently, china's been doing a good job of compromising and combining the advantages of both western and russian subs, creating fast, quiet, and lethal subs that can be produced in large numbers in chinese shipyards. :china:

 

[coolieno99]

Re: Chinese sub thread

There's one big tactical advantage the diesel-electric sub has over nuclear powered sub in a sub-to-sub fight. The diesel-electric sub can turn off its propulsion system and emit zero noise to stage an ambush. And can instantly restart its propulsion system without too much fuss. A nuclear powered sub normally never turn off its propulsion system unless in a emergency, and then it takes a very long time to restart the nuclear reactors ... :coffee:

 

[bd popeye]

Re: Chinese sub thread

There's one big tactical advantage the diesel-electric sub has over nuclear powered sub in a sub-to-sub fight. The diesel-electric sub can turn off its propulsion system and emit zero noise to stage an ambush. And can instantly restart its propulsion system without too much fuss. A nuclear powered sub normally never turn off its propulsion system unless in a emergency, and then it takes a very long time to restart the nuclear reactors ... :coffee:

Very true...but only if the SSK has superior ASW assets such as P-3 assisting with a sub search and surface combatants with excellent ASW. When the SSK shuts down it's desiel engines when submerged it is really limited in speed and endurance.

 

[Mazepa]

Re: Chinese sub thread

The superior state of American ASW is in question when the Gotland Class AIP that is a design from the 80:th was quite successful in evading the US efforts to track it down. This is where 100 years of submarine knowhow gains the upper hand even when we have such a meager defence budget (5 billion USD).




HMS Gotland completes 50 days of exercises with the US Navy

HMS Gotland, currently operating out of the USN’s San Diego naval base, has now completed more than three months of its twelve-month programme of exercises with the US Navy. It has proved a successful period for the crew, affirming the effectiveness of Swedish submarine technology and tactics. The Swedish vessel, designed by Kockums, has managed to evade detection on several occasions. The Americans are impressed by her stealth capabilities.

The crew handles minor maintenance, while a special maintenance group from the Swedish submarine flotilla conducts more major maintenance at regular intervals. Now, however, a group of Kockums’ staff is off to San Diego to meet HMS Gotland when she docks, to carry out a thorough overhaul and refit prior to continuing the next phase of these exercises.

So far, exercises have mainly involved sub-hunting by individual units, using surface and airborne ASW assets. A successful submarine rescue exercise has also been carried out in conjunction with US rescue vessels. In this relatively short period, HMS Gotland has completed more than 50 days of exercises at sea.

The training areas lie some 100 nautical miles off the US coast, where the depth varies between 1000 and 2000 metres. The entire area is equipped with microphones and underwater telephones. The vessels the Swedes have been matched against include Arleigh Burke-class destroyers and Ticonderoga-class cruisers. The submarine has also participated in manoeuvres with the P 3 Orion ASW aircraft and the Sea Hawk ASW helicopter, the F 18 Hornet strike aircraft and the Nimitz (CVN-68) aircraft carrier, the same class as CVN Ronald Reagan.

 

[IDonT]

Re: Chinese sub thread

The superior state of American ASW is in question when the Gotland Class AIP that is a design from the 80:th was quite successful in evading the US efforts to track it down. This is where 100 years of submarine knowhow gains the upper hand even when we have such a meager defence budget (5 billion USD).




HMS Gotland completes 50 days of exercises with the US Navy

HMS Gotland, currently operating out of the USN’s San Diego naval base, has now completed more than three months of its twelve-month programme of exercises with the US Navy. It has proved a successful period for the crew, affirming the effectiveness of Swedish submarine technology and tactics. The Swedish vessel, designed by Kockums, has managed to evade detection on several occasions. The Americans are impressed by her stealth capabilities.

The crew handles minor maintenance, while a special maintenance group from the Swedish submarine flotilla conducts more major maintenance at regular intervals. Now, however, a group of Kockums’ staff is off to San Diego to meet HMS Gotland when she docks, to carry out a thorough overhaul and refit prior to continuing the next phase of these exercises.

So far, exercises have mainly involved sub-hunting by individual units, using surface and airborne ASW assets. A successful submarine rescue exercise has also been carried out in conjunction with US rescue vessels. In this relatively short period, HMS Gotland has completed more than 50 days of exercises at sea.

The training areas lie some 100 nautical miles off the US coast, where the depth varies between 1000 and 2000 metres. The entire area is equipped with microphones and underwater telephones. The vessels the Swedes have been matched against include Arleigh Burke-class destroyers and Ticonderoga-class cruisers. The submarine has also participated in manoeuvres with the P 3 Orion ASW aircraft and the Sea Hawk ASW helicopter, the F 18 Hornet strike aircraft and the Nimitz (CVN-68) aircraft carrier, the same class as CVN Ronald Reagan.

That says alot about the USN, developing new tactics and doctrine before any enemy can field such a threat. The Gotland sub SSK's is one of the best AIP SSK's in the world, very quite. From what I read, the exercises were mainly 1 on 1, perhaps the next test will include a full combined arms teams to prosecute.

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The submarine is equipped with two MTU diesel engines and two Kockums V4-275R Stirling Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) units. The Stirling engines are mounted in elastic, soundproof modules and each provide up to 75kW. The submarine has the capacity for two weeks of air independent propulsion at a speed of 5 knots without snorting. The AIP uses liquid oxygen and diesel fuel in a controlled inert (helium) environment. The AIP liquid oxygen tanks are located on the deck below the engines. The propulsion system provides a speed of 11 knots surfaced and 20 knots dived.


The AIP revolution revolutionizes the SSK. Before, all that was needed was to wait until the battery runs out, not that hard considering they only last roughly 24 hours and travel at low speeds to remain undetected. Now, the AIP can stretch that endurance for weeks. However, the lack of speed still remains. The faster it goes, the less its endurance.

 

[bd popeye]

Re: Chinese sub thread

The superior state of American ASW is in question when the Gotland Class AIP that is a design from the 80:th was quite successful in evading the US efforts to track it down. This is where 100 years of submarine knowhow gains the upper hand even when we have such a meager defence budget (5 billion USD).

The USN ASW is indeed superior. I challange you to name any other nation with superior ASW capablities. Please read my entire post before any retort is made. Thank you.

Mazepa. Question.. Have you seen the results of the excersises? If so please post a source. I'm very intrested to read them. You seem to know the Swedes have the upper hand. I think they do. My son that has a very high USN security clearance and is an instructor of advanced sonar technology is not even privvy to this information.

The USN and all other navies in the world have difficulty in tracking diesel subs when they are submerged running on batteries. A near impossible task.

The purpose of the HMS Gotland being in San Diego is to train the USN on hunting diesel subs as I have pointed out many times in the past. I have the utmost confidence that the USN will learn how to track these boats.

However some navies have even a difficult time tracking noisey nuke boats weather surfaced or submerged. The USN does not have difficulty tracking nuke boats.

Not only is the USN using HMS Gotland it recently returned to service it's last remaining desiel sub. USS Dolphin. I thought this boat was decomissioned after an accident in 2002. Check out this article.

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An excerpt from the article which is quite long.

""Even aside from its diesel power plant, the Dolphin is unlike anything else in the Navy. It doesn't go to war and seldom strays far from home.

The Navy uses the Dolphin, commissioned in 1968, to test new submarine systems. The ship dives deeper than any other U.S. naval sub and carries 12 tons of scientific research gear. It tried out the Navy's latest sonar system; completed the first successful submarine-to-aircraft, two-way laser communication; collected data on ocean acoustics; and launched a torpedo from a depth greater than any other sub.

In exercises with combat submarines, the Dolphin also frequently portrays the opposing team. It's a useful role because diesel ships make up the underwater fleets of most foreign navies.

"It's hard to simulate a small diesel submarine with a big nuke" model, Hasell said"""

 

[tphuang]

Re: Chinese sub thread

I wonder if PLAN can somehow modify the Song subs to put AIP on them. It will be a lot cheaper and faster to put AIP on these things than building 12 brand new Yuans. As for the exercises, it just shows that PLAN needs as many AIP SSKs as possible. What I'm wondering about is how far the Swedish sub was from the American DDGs in these exercises. Clearly, China does not have the expertise that Sweden has with the AIP subs, so it'd have a hard time achieving results similar to what the Swedish sub had.

 

[bd popeye]

Re: Chinese sub thread

I wonder if PLAN can somehow modify the Song subs to put AIP on them. It will be a lot cheaper and faster to put AIP on these things than building 12 brand new Yuans. As for the exercises, it just shows that PLAN needs as many AIP SSKs as possible. What I'm wondering about is how far the Swedish sub was from the American DDGs in these exercises. Clearly, China does not have the expertise that Sweden has with the AIP subs, so it'd have a hard time achieving results similar to what the Swedish sub had.

I think that would be very expensive. and would take years to finish. The best bet is to install AIP in all future PLAN SSK's.

You mentioned that the PRC does not have expertise in AIP. The PLAN also has very mediorce ASW. This is an area that the PLAN needs to improve.

 

[Sczepan]

Re: Chinese sub thread

I heard some rumors, that the 2003 accident of pennant No. 361 Ming class was following by testing of new AIP engines ...

 

[MIGleader]

Re: Chinese sub thread

I heard some rumors, that the 2003 accident of pennant No. 361 Ming class was following by testing of new AIP engines ...

thats is rather strange...all the information given out said was the accident had been attributed to "mechanical malfuntion". the exact cause was not released. but the ship Had been participating in an excercise. maybe the chinese wanted to test how aip functioned in a real conflict.