Chinese submarines thread

[tphuang]

Re: Chinese sub thread

hey Popeye, I doubt there are any pictures of 093 and 094 right now, because they are considered to be strategic weapons.

As for YJ-62, Yuan definitely cannot launch it. It's 533 mm tubes are just not large enough.

AIP, the word is that Yuan does have it.

From Janes on Yuan,

Yuan Type 039A
As early as 1994 there were indications that China appeared to be attempting to build the Kilo in its own ship-yards [Richard Sharpe, Jane’s Fighting Ships, 1994-1995 (Coulsdon, Surrey, Eng.: Jane’s Information Group, 1994), p. 541].

The Yuan Type 039A is a non-nuclear powered attack submarine. It's existence was first noted in mid-2004 when a photograph of the completed submarine at China's Wuhan Shipyard was posted on a Chinese website. According to The Washington Times (July 16, 2004), American officials believe the submarine is diesel-powered. It has also been suggested that the new submarine may be comparable to the improved variant of the Russian Kilo class (Project 636) in terms of size and general performance.

The second Yuan was launched in December 2004.

The Wuhan Shipyard has also built the Type 039/G (Song class), Type 035 (Yuan class), Type 033G (Wuhan-A class) and Type 033 (Romeo class) diesel-electric submarines for the PLA Navy.

The Yuan class has a tail with diving planes similar to those of the Type 039G, and a Kilo-style teardrop shaped hull with a raised hump on top. Integrated with advanced noise reduction techniques including anechoic tiles, passive/active noise reduction, asymmetrical seven-blade skewed propeller, the 039A is expected to be as quiet as other modern diesel/electric powered submarines, and therefore much more difficult to be tracked.

Apart from indigenously developed submarine weapon systems such as indigenous active/passive-hoyuan torpedo and the YJ-8 (C-801) submarine-launched anti-ship missile, the Yuan class may also be capable of launching the latest Russian weapons (or their Chinese copies) such as the TEST-71MKE wire-guided torpedo, the 53-65KE wave-hoyuan torpedo, and even 3M-54E Club supersonic submarine-launched anti-ship missile.

The electronic systems onboard the Yuan class may include CCD camera, infrared/thermal image camera, laser range-finder, surface-search radar and radar warning receiver. Various weapon systems and sensors are integrated by a digitized combat data command and control system.

The new Yuan Class attack submarine is part of a greater Chinese naval buildup. With the risk of armed conflict over Taiwan always present, the People's Liberation Army (PLA) has invested heavily in submarines with the goal of converting them into a first-line of attack vis-a-vis carriers.

Darth, this thread is discussing Chinese subs, not Taiwanese efforts against it.

 

[IDonT]

Re: Chinese sub thread

It is in Submarine warfare that China truly lags behind. The USN's lead on this regard is enourmous. The 093 subs are the quitest SSN sub in the PLAN arsenal, but the USN has proven capability to detect and track the world's quitest SSN boats. China needs to invest in quieting technology for its SSN. The other side of the equation is detection. Can china detect a well handled LA class SSN? Does it possess the sonar suites to be able to do this?

SSK's, even with the AIP, are still very vulnerable due to the fact that they are useless above their 5 knot "quite" speed. At higher speeds, they are noisy, their batteries run out faster, etc. In comparison, the Seawolf has a "quite" speed of "more than" 20 knots, and that is using US sonar suites.

Training and tactics are the other pillar. The USN has been using nuke boats since the 60's. They had plenty of time to home their skills in the coldwar and know how to handle their boats. They have established doctrines and tradition.

 

[MIGleader]

Re: Chinese sub thread

It is in Submarine warfare that China truly lags behind. The USN's lead on this regard is enourmous. The 093 subs are the quitest SSN sub in the PLAN arsenal, but the USN has proven capability to detect and track the world's quitest SSN boats. China needs to invest in quieting technology for its SSN. The other side of the equation is detection. Can china detect a well handled LA class SSN? Does it possess the sonar suites to be able to do this?

SSK's, even with the AIP, are still very vulnerable due to the fact that they are useless above their 5 knot "quite" speed. At higher speeds, they are noisy, their batteries run out faster, etc. In comparison, the Seawolf has a "quite" speed of "more than" 20 knots, and that is using US sonar suites.

Training and tactics are the other pillar. The USN has been using nuke boats since the 60's. They had plenty of time to home their skills in the coldwar and know how to handle their boats. They have established doctrines and tradition.

seeing how in a taiwan conflict, chinese would be in a more defensive position, i see no difficulty for plan subs to move around quietlty. they would be postioned to intercept the carrier group, not chase the carrier group. china is indeed investing heavily on quieting teachnology. and with some many diesels and so much backgorund noise, some things bound to slip through.

 

[bd popeye]

Re: Chinese sub thread

seeing how in a taiwan conflict, chinese would be in a more defensive position, i see no difficulty for plan subs to move around quietlty. they would be postioned to intercept the carrier group, not chase the carrier group. china is indeed investing heavily on quieting teachnology. and with some many diesels and so much backgorund noise, some things bound to slip through.

Face it MIGleader the subs would be detecded. Eventually. If a P-3 did not find them. An Arliegh Burke would. Still can't find them? How about and LA class or a Tico or two? And don't forget SH-60 variants flying around looking for subs. Will something slip through? Maybe,.. but I would not want to be on that crew of that sub because if it goes undected, slips through and fires any weapons..well it's dead. Period.

What I would like to see is some real comprehensive information as to what electronics equipment, operating systems and weapons the PLAN subs have. I want no more info than a site like the USN or JMSDF puts out. I just wanna know the basics. But what can we expect afterall? The best info we can get about the PLAN is right here in Sinodefence.com. Good info here but as a China watcher I wanna see more.

Hey gotta a question..Why does not the PLA have a big web site with basic info like other nations do?????????? I just wanna know. Thank you!

 

[IDonT]

Re: Chinese sub thread

seeing how in a taiwan conflict, chinese would be in a more defensive position, i see no difficulty for plan subs to move around quietlty. they would be postioned to intercept the carrier group, not chase the carrier group. china is indeed investing heavily on quieting teachnology. and with some many diesels and so much backgorund noise, some things bound to slip through.

In a Taiwan conflict, it China who will be on the offensive. It has to "offend" the Taiwanese.

Most of PLAN's most potent submarines are SSK's. Unfortunately these lack the speed and endurance of the SSN. Moving into position and remaining undetected while doing so will take a very long time. As I said, the top quite speed of an SSK's is at 5 knots. Furthermore, to get into position, the SSK's need to snorkel to replenished its batteries. AIP SSK's can spend longer periods underwater but they still rely on their supply of liquid oxygen on board (depends on the type of AIP). A prudent commander will not us this while transiting but during actual combat. Snorkeling is loud and your course will be plotted. Once plotted, your general area of operations will be known.

Lets see, the USN on occasion has 2 SSN's with its carrier. That is 24 SSN total for carrier escort. That roughly 50 percent of the USN submarine force. The question is, where is the other 50 percent? They are doing independent missions, acostic intelligence on PLAN naval ports, etc.

As for SSNs, PLAN has made significant strides in this area. However, I still hold reservations about the "victor III" capability of the 093. The first generation HAN class are very loud. To leap from this to a Victor III type isequivalent to jumping from the Mig 15 to the Mig 29 in a single generation. On a historical note, the VICTOR III is the first Russian boat to have serious quieting technology applied to it thanks to a Spy in the 70's. Before this, Soviet subs were very noisy.

The final leg is for the PLAN submarine sensor suite. How capable are their sonar? Do they have a towed array sonar? Can they detect an LA class sub on the prowl? I do not know about this area yet, but it is safe to assume that it has its ancestry with Russian designs.

 

[MIGleader]

Re: Chinese sub thread

In a Taiwan conflict, it China who will be on the offensive. It has to "offend" the Taiwanese.

Most of PLAN's most potent submarines are SSK's. Unfortunately these lack the speed and endurance of the SSN. Moving into position and remaining undetected while doing so will take a very long time. As I said, the top quite speed of an SSK's is at 5 knots. Furthermore, to get into position, the SSK's need to snorkel to replenished its batteries. AIP SSK's can spend longer periods underwater but they still rely on their supply of liquid oxygen on board (depends on the type of AIP). A prudent commander will not us this while transiting but during actual combat. Snorkeling is loud and your course will be plotted. Once plotted, your general area of operations will be known.

Lets see, the USN on occasion has 2 SSN's with its carrier. That is 24 SSN total for carrier escort. That roughly 50 percent of the USN submarine force. The question is, where is the other 50 percent? They are doing independent missions, acostic intelligence on PLAN naval ports, etc.

As for SSNs, PLAN has made significant strides in this area. However, I still hold reservations about the "victor III" capability of the 093. The first generation HAN class are very loud. To leap from this to a Victor III type isequivalent to jumping from the Mig 15 to the Mig 29 in a single generation. On a historical note, the VICTOR III is the first Russian boat to have serious quieting technology applied to it thanks to a Spy in the 70's. Before this, Soviet subs were very noisy.

The final leg is for the PLAN submarine sensor suite. How capable are their sonar? Do they have a towed array sonar? Can they detect an LA class sub on the prowl? I do not know about this area yet, but it is safe to assume that it has its ancestry with Russian designs.

you dontget it. the plan subs are not attacking taiwan!!! the pla is. the plan's job would to be support the landings, destroy the taiwanese navy, and Defend the invasion force from any american ships.

the plan has a week or more to manuver its subs into postion before the americans arrive. i really dont doubt chinas abilities to make "great" leaps. They went from j-7 to j-10 in 15 years. the hans were in design since the 60s. plus, with alot of russian assistance, much of the "leap' has already been taken for the chinese.

 

[tphuang]

Re: Chinese sub thread

to popeye, this is a photo of the latest 636M that China purchased. I'm not sure what you can make out of this.

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According to this Kanwa article, 636M uses a lot of the latest electronics Russians put on Amur, so you can get an idea of the electronics on it I guess.

The Yuan sub's electronics was talked about a little bit in the front.

As for 093, I personally think we can expect it to be initially equivalent to later models of Victor III, because China got a lot of help from the Rubin on this proejct. According to that Taiwanese military magazine, the noise level of 093 might be 130 db, but can be lowered to 110 db later. Also, it uses engine that can cool, so it can go at over 40 knots. Think about it this way, if you equip a fighter from the 60th with 90s avionics, it would be better than planes from the 70s. Same case here, the hull might be from 30 years ago, but the other components used are pretty up to date. The decline in 094 is expected to be even more dramatic (165 to 120).

 

[darth sidious]

Re: Chinese sub thread

the chinese will not attempt to attack an american fleet with just one sub insted large numbers will be group into a pack to lunched a combined attack one sub can not beat the whole asw syatem but many of them can! also the primary atttack weapon will be long ranged missile so they stand agood chance

IDONT

your commenr on the russian sub are not that accurate the info brought by the walker spy ring is mostly on the position of american ship and the Victory II is not quiet enough so they built the Victory III the first russian sub to take steeps toward quieting is the P-class with reduce machinery noise and rubber skkin .

I dont know where you got the idea that the 093 isa victory III but fromwhat i have heard its moire like the A-class designed for high speed

 

[IDonT]

Re: Chinese sub thread

the chinese will not attempt to attack an american fleet with just one sub insted large numbers will be group into a pack to lunched a combined attack one sub can not beat the whole asw syatem but many of them can! also the primary atttack weapon will be long ranged missile so they stand agood chance

IDONT

your commenr on the russian sub are not that accurate the info brought by the walker spy ring is mostly on the position of american ship and the Victory II is not quiet enough so they built the Victory III the first russian sub to take steeps toward quieting is the P-class with reduce machinery noise and rubber skkin .

I dont know where you got the idea that the 093 isa victory III but fromwhat i have heard its moire like the A-class designed for high speed

There are many problems associated with a mass sub attack. Firstly, how does a sub commander identify an underwater sonar contact as a Friend or foe. At such proximity, there will be many incidences of (not-so) friendly fire. Second, with many subs operating at once in a small localized area, once one is located all are located. Thirdly, the US has some 50+ SSN's, the PLAN arsenal does not have enough subs to outnumber it.

I got the 093 info from sinodefence.

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t appeared that China had encountered a range of technical difficulties in developing the Type 093 SSN, including nuclear radiation and noise reduction. It was reported that Russian assistance was sought to solve these critical issues in the late 1990s. The Type 093 SSN is expected to be similar in size and performance to Russian second-generation submarines such as Victor-III class. However, the Type 093 SSN would still represent a significant technological achievement comparing to the first generation Type 091.

 

[coolieno99]

Re: Chinese sub thread

There are many problems associated with a mass sub attack. Firstly, how does a sub commander identify an underwater sonar contact as a Friend or foe. At such proximity, there will be many incidences of (not-so) friendly fire. Second, with many subs operating at once in a small localized area, once one is located all are located. Thirdly, the US has some 50+ SSN's, the PLAN arsenal does not have enough subs to outnumber it......

Since the subs are launching relatively long range missiles, they don't have to be position close to one another. Besides the tactics of mass sub attack were used in WW 2 with good success by the German navy. :coffee: