Chinese submarines thread

[MIGleader]

Re: Chinese sub thread

think of it this way wich one has a higher chance of sucess one sub or an entier fleet for sub their numbers can only be an advantage

END NOTE a mass sub attack will have a higher chance of sucess then a single one

a mass sub attack would complete betray the groups position, and if anti sub planes come and find one sub, they have found the whole group. based on the number of missles a single sub can hold nowadays, a group of 3-4 subs has a good chance of at least getting one cruise missle through any fleet air defence shield.

 

[slackpiv]

Re: Chinese sub thread

even if subs travel in groups of 3-4, it does not have a good chance of launching 1 cruise missile to skip through. Even if it does the CWIS will pick it up. It has to go through the ASW screen and deal with the Aegis.

 

[MIGleader]

Re: Chinese sub thread

you are wrong. a group of 3-4 subs can probably carry within the range of 20-30 missles, perhaps more all comming at mach .9. even if aegis can intercept some of them, saying a 100% kill rate of the missle is redicoulous. with these numbers, at least 2-3 will get through. since china is on defence from a cvbg, it can set the feild up to its will. the cvbg will have to come for it. cwis stand little chance until air superiority is obtained, and you can obtain air superiority till your carriers safe. a catch 22.

why did you automaticly assume i was talking about a conflict with america? i could have been targeting taiwan or india for all you know.

 

[slackpiv]

Re: Chinese sub thread

First of all the chance that they'll make it through the ASW screen is minimal. Coming within range is basically coming within 50 nm traveling at roughly 2 knots. 20 to 30 missiles? After the first round of missiles they will be detected. Once detected they're sitting ducks. If they manage to launch all their missiles, they would be intercepted.The Aegis can deal with over 100 concerant threats. Why would a CVBG go for subs in the first place? It would presumably stay far from mainland China. CWIS stands no chance until you have air superiority???????? CIWS is automonmous. The Aegis was designed to defend against a saturated supersonic barage of over 100 missiles ranging from the moskit to the granit. China right now does not have this capability.

 

[Roger604]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Actually this seems like an exaggeration to me. Just because it was designed to handle 100 missiles does not mean it actually can. I'm sure the US hides its most realistic testing figures. But on the basis of the obvious fear the US authorities have of even a small number of moskit missiles in Chinese possession, I think a 30 missile barrage would definitely cause serious damage. Besides, just think of the physics... it's gotta be a lot harder to be on the intercepting end than to be on the launching end. It's like being a goaltender in a penalty shot in football / soccer.

 

[IDonT]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Actually this seems like an exaggeration to me. Just because it was designed to handle 100 missiles does not mean it actually can. I'm sure the US hides its most realistic testing figures. But on the basis of the obvious fear the US authorities have of even a small number of moskit missiles in Chinese possession, I think a 30 missile barrage would definitely cause serious damage. Besides, just think of the physics... it's gotta be a lot harder to be on the intercepting end than to be on the launching end. It's like being a goaltender in a penalty shot in football / soccer.

That's assuming that all 100 missiles have a 100% probability of hitting something. You are forgetting the USN's numerous soft kill systems. A fast missile, like the sunburn, is actually at a disadvantage. Once it breaks the horizon and starts to scan for its target, it only has about 30 seconds. Can it discriminate the difference between a Ship, several floating decoys, several clouds of chaff, and a helo showing the radar reflection of a ship within that time and under intense jamming?

Aegis was designed to counter the Soviet navy's saturation attacks in the 70's. Soviet Union's backfire regiments armed with mach 3 anti-ship missiles is more of a threat to the USN in 1985 than the PLAN in 2005. Add the preliferation of Aegis ships in the USN fleet and improvements for the past 25 years, then you will get just the surface of how powerful the USN is.

 

[bd popeye]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Actually this seems like an exaggeration to me. Just because it was designed to handle 100 missiles does not mean it actually can. I'm sure the US hides its most realistic testing figures. But on the basis of the obvious fear the US authorities have of even a small number of moskit missiles in Chinese possession, I think a 30 missile barrage would definitely cause serious damage. Besides, just think of the physics... it's gotta be a lot harder to be on the intercepting end than to be on the launching end. It's like being a goaltender in a penalty shot in football / soccer.

Roger. You are mistaken. The Ageis system can handle more that 100 targets. Have you ever been in CIC on a Tico or A/B??? I have . Just to see a demonstation. All I can say is that the system can does what it says it can do. After 9-11 Tico's an A/B's were used to provide air defense for both coast to the US. There ablity to track and target hundreds of aircraft was proven then.

As far as having Moslit or Sunburn. I think the US did pruchase some a few years ago. I'm sure when the USN sank the ex-USS America CV-66(80,000) tons dis. Some Moskit/Sunburn's were used.

I can not vouch for the validty of the below link. But I do believe that the US purchased some Russian missiles from the Ukraine some years ago.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

 

[MIGleader]

Re: Chinese sub thread

just because the system can handle over 100 missles does not mean a few will not get through, especilly with large numbers there are a few in here that believe aegis is a wonder system, capable of doing anything. realisticly, its a great performer, but depends on real people and real tracking to function. the plans sub missles are subsonic, and therfore have more time to discriminate targets than the sunburn. soem here simply cant get the aegis dream out of their head. like many other things in the u.s military, its goal is to make you feels safe. i dont think anyones has ever fired 100 supersonic missles at aegis in real war, so its abilities are claims(which are fairly realistic, but gurenteeing a 100% kill rate for a couple dozen missles is redicoulous).
the yj-82 has a range of 120 km. thats more than a cwis screen covers.

 

[IDonT]

Re: Chinese sub thread

just because the system can handle over 100 missles does not mean a few will not get through, especilly with large numbers there are a few in here that believe aegis is a wonder system, capable of doing anything. realisticly, its a great performer, but depends on real people and real tracking to function. the plans sub missles are subsonic, and therfore have more time to discriminate targets than the sunburn. soem here simply cant get the aegis dream out of their head. like many other things in the u.s military, its goal is to make you feels safe. i dont think anyones has ever fired 100 supersonic missles at aegis in real war, so its abilities are claims(which are fairly realistic, but gurenteeing a 100% kill rate for a couple dozen missles is redicoulous).
the yj-82 has a range of 120 km. thats more than a cwis screen covers.

Mig you made some good points....
But in all likelyhood, the USN has greater probability of handling a 100 supersonic missiles coming its way than the PLAN has at coordinating such a strike on a moving target in war footing and in a hostile EM environment.

To have such a strike, you need to have good and survivable reconnaisance to see where the USN is at all times until the first missile is lauched. Then you need very capable C&C to coordinate a hundred planes plus support to make sure they arrive at the designated area at the exact moment to ensure time on target and proper massing of forces. The most important of these factors is the first one. Without it, your strike force will not know where to go.

Long range missiles need very good over the horizon targeting in order to take advantage of its range. Without it, its range is limited to within the horizon. It is sort of like using a sniper rifle without a scope. You can use it but not a the long range it was designed for.

 

[slackpiv]

Re: Chinese sub thread

the yj-82 has a range of 120 km. thats more than a cwis screen covers.

its a lot more than that SM-2ER/SM-2/ESSM/evolved sea sparrow/SEA RAM. First of all the chance that the platform can get into launch range would be low enough. As for 100 percent accuracy, the AEGIS doesn't need that. It could simply guide 2 missiles per target which would greatly increase the chance of a hit. (assuming china doesn't have the capability of launching over 100 missiles at once with 3-4 subs). Also the new generation of AEGIS has been able to actually coordinate missiles on different AEGIS vessels to a threat. For example if a threat is detected a sm-2s can be launched from 2 different AB at the same target. Or if they're r 2 targets in the vincinity. instead of 1 AB launching its 2 SM-2s at the targets, the vessels automate which theats are handled by whom.

Long range missiles need very good over the horizon targeting in order to take advantage of its range. Without it, its range is limited to within the horizon. It is sort of like using a sniper rifle without a scope. You can use it but not a the long range it was designed for.

exactly PLAN vessels won't be able to target USN ships over the horizon without reconassaince. so far i doubt PLAN has integrated its AWACS with its navy. I also havn't heard of any PLAN purchase of the KA-31 (which was recently bought by the Indians for their brahmos). The thing with the USN, is that official numbers often understate their capability(not in the case with the Russians who frequently overstate their capability). I don't know how many times the unclassified range of the SM-2 has been updated.