Chinese submarines thread

[crobato]

Re: Chinese sub thread

@crobato: No, a "quiet reactor" isn't that contradictory. As you metioned, the problem are the coolant pumps. So, the goal is to create a reactor without pumps at all. Does it ring a bell? You must have read about this in this forum, I'm sure.

Coolant pumps are not the problem. Coolant pumps are run by electric motors, much like diesel subs, and the motors running these pumps are much smaller electric motors too. No, the real problem is the coolants running hot inside the tubes all around the ship. If you are water cooled, the heat produces bubbles, and that produces cavitation noises. So you go into gas cooling, but superheated gas running across tubes produce their own noise. Add to that, gas is not as efficient as a coolant than liquid, so you need to be blowing gas at the reactor at high speeds and pressures. The reactor isn't just the problem, it's also the steam turbine if you are using water cooled, or a gas turbine if you are using gas cooled. That also produces its own noise. Now matter how you look at it, once you go past the advertising material, if it needs a cooling system or runs a turbine, it definitely produces noise.

 

[bd popeye]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Coolant pumps are not the problem. Coolant pumps are run by electric motors, much like diesel subs, and the motors running these pumps are much smaller electric motors too. No, the real problem is the coolants running hot inside the tubes all around the ship. If you are water cooled, the heat produces bubbles, and that produces cavitation noises. So you go into gas cooling, but superheated gas running across tubes produce their own noise. Add to that, gas is not as efficient as a coolant than liquid, so you need to be blowing gas at the reactor at high speeds and pressures. The reactor isn't just the problem, it's also the steam turbine if you are using water cooled, or a gas turbine if you are using gas cooled. That also produces its own noise. Now matter how you look at it, once you go past the advertising material, if it needs a cooling system or runs a turbine, it definitely produces noise.

That's interesting..Actually anything that makes noise on a sub produces an acoustic signature. I'm sure you know that.

crobato, I have a son that is a master instructor of advanced sonar technology at the ASW base in San Diego CA. He has been in the USN for 7.5 years. I asked him about tracking desiel subs and non US nuke subs in an email..

Hi dad.
I can answer your questions. diesel boats are hard to track because when submerged they're running on batteries. no moving parts in batteries so they don't make any noise. nucs have turbines, so there are a lot of moving parts associated with that. all those parts need systems in place to reduce the noise. those systems don't always work and when they fail we can see them. all of the nuc subs that are out there have their problems except for the U.S of course. so in comparison to a submerged diesel there are no nucs that I know of that would be harder to track. i hope this helps!

luv you
-----Original Message-----
From: Gerry
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 11:24
To: STG2 Fleet Anti-Submarine Warfare Training Center
Subject: Professional question about tracking subs


Hi Alex..I got some pictures today from Jerremy..You and Tamia were in them. It was nice.

Any way I have 2 questions for you. If you can't answer them it's ok I understand.

OK..Why is it so hard for the USN to track diesel submarines? Are there any forgien nuke subs that are super hard to track?

I know that you cannot disclose any confidential info. I got into it with some guys on the internet about this subject I told them that deisel subs were hard to track. But I don't really know why. So if you can tell me I would appericate it.

Love Dad

 

[PiSigma]

Re: Chinese sub thread

yay popeye to the rescue again,

falstaff, miggy, crobato, guys.. try to cool it down a bit. stay away from personal attacks and try provide more hard facts to keep it professional. thx

 

[crobato]

Re: Chinese sub thread

I didn't insult anyone. Note my posts. And if you happen to notice, I am only pointing the hard facts, and that simply calling something "quiet" reactor isn't going to make it quiet as a diesel sub. You still have coolants and turbines to deal with and all their associated plumbing running all along their hull. A diesel sub can run on batteries and electric motors, and that's about it. You can always say that I can apply as much sound proofing and cancellation against the reactor, coolant systems and turbines and be as quiet as a diesel sub, but if you apply the same level of treatment to a diesel sub, it will only take it to the next level of being even more quieter.

BD, thanks on your reply but everyone knows that is precisely why diesel subs are more quiet. Less plumbing, less moving parts, less noise. Of course if you really want to go quiet on a nuke sub, you can shut down on everything and go battery.

 

[bd popeye]

Re: Chinese sub thread

I didn't insult anyone. Note my posts. And if you happen to notice, I am only pointing the hard facts, and that simply calling something "quiet" reactor isn't going to make it quiet as a diesel sub. You still have coolants and turbines to deal with and all their associated plumbing running all along their hull. A diesel sub can run on batteries and electric motors, and that's about it. You can always say that I can apply as much sound proofing and cancellation against the reactor, coolant systems and turbines and be as quiet as a diesel sub, but if you apply the same level of treatment to a diesel sub, it will only take it to the next level of being even more quieter.

BD, thanks on your reply but everyone knows that is precisely why diesel subs are more quiet. Less plumbing, less moving parts, less noise. Of course if you really want to go quiet on a nuke sub, you can shut down on everything and go battery.

BD, thanks on your reply but everyone knows that is precisely why diesel subs are more quiet. Less plumbing, less moving parts, less noise. Of course if you really want to go quiet on a nuke sub, you can shut down on everything and go battery.

You could shut down everything but that's not really practical because a nuclear reactor takes some time to shut down and re-start..But I guess that's possible. My knowledge of nuke reactors is limited. I was on the USS Nimitz in '90-'91 and I know that when the nuke power plant was "lit-off"(re-started) It took some time. About 12 hours I think. I have no idea how long it would take to light off a sub power plant.

 

[darth sidious]

Re: Chinese sub thread

does any one know how many sungs the plan have right now 12?14? if so then it would make plan the strongest sub fleet in china

 

[bd popeye]

Re: Chinese sub thread

does any one know how many sungs the plan have right now 12?14? if so then it would make plan the strongest sub fleet in china

Darth, did you mean song class type 39?? If so according to

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

They have seven as of today. According to that link they will have 15 by 2010. I agree that China will have the strongest sub fleet if the current building trend by the PLAN continues. Question is how well built are these subs and how well trained are the crews?????? It's one thing to have all these military toys and a whole another thing to operate them with profiencey.

 

[tphuang]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Darth, did you mean song class type 39?? If so according to

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

They have seven as of today. According to that link they will have 15 by 2010. I agree that China will have the strongest sub fleet if the current building trend by the PLAN continues. Question is how well built are these subs and how well trained are the crews?????? It's one thing to have all these military toys and a whole another thing to operate them with profiencey.

Including the original 320 (so the one that was built in 1994 and had problems), there were 9 at the end of 2004.

The current Song sub force is this:
320-326
313-316
328、329
So, a total of 13. Not sure how many are commissioned. I could see this growing for another 2 years to about 18 before China starts building Yuan exclusively.

As for the training, it's like all other new Chinese platforms. Too many new equipments are coming in too soon. With the cut back (yes, there are cut backs in pla too) in the size of the navy, who really knows if they will even have enough crews on some of the subs.

 

[bd popeye]

Re: Chinese sub thread

So, a total of 13. Not sure how many are commissioned. I could see this growing for another 2 years to about 18 before China starts building Yuan exclusively.

As for the training, it's like all other new Chinese platforms. Too many new equipments are coming in too soon. With the cut back (yes, there are cut backs in pla too) in the size of the navy, who really knows if they will even have enough crews on some of the subs

Thanks for the info! I was looking for actual operational numbers.

As far as training. I will continue to mention it over and over again. Because all this 'Hi-tech' wizadry, gizmos and gadgets required well trained crew to operate them. I spent two years of my USN carreer as an assistant to the training officer of a large shore command. My job was to make sure sailors stayed current in their rates(jobs)..by sending them to their "C" schools(continuing) for advanced training. Calling in civillian techs to conduct training. Making sure in shop training was conducted and documented.

I keep asking questions about PLAN training because it is so difficult to find out any solid information. My hope is that some one will post some good info on PLAN training.

I think the PLAN will encounter some difficulty when it finally sends a CV to sea. Without experienced sailors to training the crew in such rudmentary things as aircraft firefighting, damage control. weapons handling, flight & hangar deck operations and safety. Well honestly it will be a long road to haul for the PLAN.

What they will need is experienced carrier sailors from "another nation" To train them. Kind of like what some countries do with soccer coaches...

As for PLAN subs. Sure the PLAN has plenty. But What about the crews?....No one knows for sure. For those sailors sake I hope they are being well trained. The best training comes for a sailor during time at sea doing your job and drilling and training...etc...etc...

 

[Mr_C]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Thanks for the info! I was looking for actual operational numbers.

As far as training. I will continue to mention it over and over again. Because all this 'Hi-tech' wizadry, gizmos and gadgets required well trained crew to operate them. I spent two years of my USN carreer as an assistant to the training officer of a large shore command. My job was to make sure sailors stayed current in their rates(jobs)..by sending them to their "C" schools(continuing) for advanced training. Calling in civillian techs to conduct training. Making sure in shop training was conducted and documented.

I keep asking questions about PLAN training because it is so difficult to find out any solid information. My hope is that some one will post some good info on PLAN training.

I think the PLAN will encounter some difficulty when it finally sends a CV to sea. Without experienced sailors to training the crew in such rudmentary things as aircraft firefighting, damage control. weapons handling, flight & hangar deck operations and safety. Well honestly it will be a long road to haul for the PLAN.

What they will need is experienced carrier sailors from "another nation" To train them. Kind of like what some countries do with soccer coaches...

As for PLAN subs. Sure the PLAN has plenty. But What about the crews?....No one knows for sure. For those sailors sake I hope they are being well trained. The best training comes for a sailor during time at sea doing your job and drilling and training...etc...etc...

Yeah i know what u mean.. buti would not underestimate PLAN training of their submarine crew. I remember a lone ming class submarine sneaked into Japan in April right after Japan's annoucement of their involvement to protect Taiwan. The only reason that the submarine was discovered was because it deliberately surfaced itself when a Japanese patrol aircraft flew over it. The sub then sailed back to China surfaced. I can't remember where i read this news article but it was way back in April. I think it was in Global security or something. Anyway to acheive that i think the crew must have done something right. But then again...just like in all organisations.... some areas of training r better than others and some r crappier. I think its also the intention of the PLAN to keep their training info secret ... so their enemies can just keep guessing and confuse themselves.