Chinese sub surfaces undetected behind USS Kitty Hawk

maozedong · Nov 17, 2006

mobydog said:
I'm not much into Navy stuff..

Thru the thread.. I've read that the CBG has one or two SSN protecting it, and that most of you post that the Song class couldn't trail a carrier in transit.

If this is such a case, then what made you think the SSN can patrol and protect the transiting CBG's outer quadran ?? Yes, the SSN do have more endurance and max dived speed of 32 knots (Los Angeles class).. but it would be very noisy above 5 to 10 knots and I wonder whether it could detect anything on sonar travelling 20 knots and above ?

Another question is what is the normal cruising speed of a carrier ?

And what is the dived speed of a song ?

What, technically, I mean is that the CBG could only be as fast as the SSN can trail, while providing adequate protection.

dosn't matter the speed between Kittyhawk and Song,there is a oppinion says the Song was waiting in the way-under the water,shut off the engine of the sub,to monitor US CGB training,but nobody knows why the Song floated up to the surface of the water,maybe the Song stayed under the water too long with out the limited of the sub,then it have to float up to the surface of the water.the area is exactly just 5 mile from US CGB.
so many speculation about this event.
maybe<washington times> report is not true,I readed some chinese magazines early this year,they criticized some US media like <washington post>,<washington times> reported some incorrect news to blow up China threaten....
it's hard to say,this event maybe is true,maybe is not.or maybe the report is enhanced by some people.

rock3times · Nov 17, 2006

But the GENERAL area where the exercise took place were announced in advance to warn other navies and civvies to stay out of there....
this gives the PLAN valuable intelligence to stage an ammbush...German U boat style...
Many of you still left out another possibility, the SONG were lying there with the engines OFF...this in combination of neglect/failure to turn on ASW out of belief that Chinese subs would not venture this far adds to the stunt that the SONG just made..
remember when the Soviet jets overflew the Kitty Hawk a while back...caught the ship captain with his pants down...
History shows the US Navy always defeats itself thru complacencies.
I wonder,:nana: as part of the KH CBG, where were the SEawolf and Asheville when all this happened.

Kilo636 · Nov 18, 2006

bd popeye said:
If such a sinking did occur the sinking would hardend the hearts of Americans. The want and resolve to extract blood from the attackers would be great.

Your assumption that a "few thousand" would be killed is an uninformed statement. The ship would more than likely be at General Quaters when such an attack occuried. Buttoned up tight. All watertight doors and hatches closed. Those sailors on board when the strike occured would put all their damage control and fire fighting training to work to save their ship. If the ship did sink many sailors would surive. Most infact.

The retaliation by the US would be extremely severe. The US would bring it's full might to bare on the PLAN.

I hope that no war evers occurs between the PRC and US.

Because war sucks.

THere is where u r wrong! American will only bring full retaliation on surprise and unprovoke attack like Pearl Harbour and 9/11. By yr theory,North Vietnam will have been flatten by US long time ago with 5,8000 US casualties. Cos it will result a ultra outrage. Why it did not? Cos US were poking into someother people business.

Just like poking into Chinese domestic matter. Taiwan is officially recognise as part of whole China by US. PRC fights Taiwan and it is completely a Chinese own business. It u poke into other business and get plenty of American kill. It will be the US politician fault,not the enemy fault!

Just like somalia,where US cannot even tolerate 18 casualties ,not to mention thousands or ten thousands US sailors lifes. Just like some 2,800 US troops lifes in Iraq and still counting! Where American are so outrage that they pick Democrats than the Republican in recent election.

bd popeye,i know u r an ex-sailor and very enthusiatic abt defending US prestige and fighting a war for US. But u this type of military Amercian only represent 2% of the population. 98% of American are teacher,Texas cowboy,professional,businessman who r only some ordinary citizens where they believe if US politician brings US to war of some other business and suffer heavy casualties.They shall withdraw.
They r not going to be like u ,more outrage and send more men to fight to escalate the matter!

Chinese civil war is no pearl harbour or 9/11....

If PRC sink a US carrier in Chinese civil war and at least 1000 sailors killed,ordinary US citizen will question the wisdom of US politician and final decision will be ' BACK OFF'

:china:

tphuang · Nov 18, 2006

Kilo636 said:
THere is where u r wrong! American will only bring full retaliation on surprise and unprovoke attack like Pearl Harbour and 9/11. By yr theory,North Vietnam will have been flatten by US long time ago with 5,8000 US casualties. Cos it will result a ultra outrage. Why it did not? Cos US were poking into someother people business.

Just like poking into Chinese domestic matter. Taiwan is officially recognise as part of whole China by US. PRC fights Taiwan and it is completely a Chinese own business. It u poke into other business and get plenty of American kill. It will be the US politician fault,not the enemy fault!

Just like somalia,where US cannot even tolerate 18 casualties ,not to mention thousands or ten thousands US sailors lifes. Just like some 2,800 US troops lifes in Iraq and still counting! Where American are so outrage that they pick Democrats than the Republican in recent election.

bd popeye,i know u r an ex-sailor and very enthusiatic abt defending US prestige and fighting a war for US. But u this type of military Amercian only represent 2% of the population. 98% of American are teacher,Texas cowboy,professional,businessman who r only some ordinary citizens where they believe if US politician brings US to war of some other business and suffer heavy casualties.They shall withdraw.
They r not going to be like u ,more outrage and send more men to fight to escalate the matter!

Chinese civil war is no pearl harbour or 9/11....

If PRC sink a US carrier in Chinese civil war and at least 1000 sailors killed,ordinary US citizen will question the wisdom of US politician and final decision will be ' BACK OFF'

:china:

carriers are strategic assetts. I dare say that they are as important as cities. If even one carrier get sunk, you might even see retaliation on Chinese cities. But that's just my opinion. No American president can possibly survive presidency if he allows a carrier to be sunk without serious, serious payback. Let's hope that never happens.

Finn McCool · Nov 19, 2006

Kilo636 said:
THere is where u r wrong! American will only bring full retaliation on surprise and unprovoke attack like Pearl Harbour and 9/11. By yr theory,North Vietnam will have been flatten by US long time ago with 5,8000 US casualties. Cos it will result a ultra outrage. Why it did not? Cos US were poking into someother people business.

Just like poking into Chinese domestic matter. Taiwan is officially recognise as part of whole China by US. PRC fights Taiwan and it is completely a Chinese own business. It u poke into other business and get plenty of American kill. It will be the US politician fault,not the enemy fault!

Just like somalia,where US cannot even tolerate 18 casualties ,not to mention thousands or ten thousands US sailors lifes. Just like some 2,800 US troops lifes in Iraq and still counting! Where American are so outrage that they pick Democrats than the Republican in recent election.

bd popeye,i know u r an ex-sailor and very enthusiatic abt defending US prestige and fighting a war for US. But u this type of military Amercian only represent 2% of the population. 98% of American are teacher,Texas cowboy,professional,businessman who r only some ordinary citizens where they believe if US politician brings US to war of some other business and suffer heavy casualties.They shall withdraw.
They r not going to be like u ,more outrage and send more men to fight to escalate the matter!

Chinese civil war is no pearl harbour or 9/11....

If PRC sink a US carrier in Chinese civil war and at least 1000 sailors killed,ordinary US citizen will question the wisdom of US politician and final decision will be ' BACK OFF'

:china:

Now, I don't want to start a flame incident here so I'm not going to go in depth here but I'll say this: Americans are generally very enthusiastic about war as long as it is conventional

.

As to the question "Where was the Seawolf or the Asheville?", I would say that they (particularly the Seawolf) have been rumoured to have been tracking Chinese subs and loitering around PLAN sub bases like the entrance to the Bohai Sea and around Hainan. Why? To record the sonar signatures of the various PLAN sub classes. So that is one of the main reasons why I think that the Song was detected before it got to the point where it surfaced. It is very likely that the USN has its sonar signature on file and can pick it out of the background noise.

mehdi · Nov 19, 2006

******************************************************************************************************************************

To keep in touch with the thread I would ask a simple question was the sub in question a song type or a yuan type? and how accurate are the claims that the submarine was definitely a song type.

Country bashing remarks are not allowed in this forum. Limit your contribution to the military aspects of the thread

bd popeye supermoderator

IDonT · Nov 19, 2006

mehdi said:
To keep in touch with the thread I would ask a simple question was the sub in question a song type or a yuan type? and how accurate are the claims that the submarine was definitely a song type.

Each vessel carries a unique sonar signature that is differs from all other ships, even the ones from the same Class. If the Song was indeed tracked by US forces, chances are they not only know its Class but its name, penant number, who is her captain, her most recent overhaul, etc.

To answer other's question about American retaliation to a carrier sinking:

The US military has one weakness, American Public opinion. The moment you attack them in an unprovoke act, all bets are off. Remember the US has not had a congress declared war since 1945.

bd popeye · Nov 19, 2006

Thank you IDont and tphuang & Finn for answering the post by Kilo636.

moderators note..easy on the political comments..easy

Finn McCool · Nov 19, 2006

bd popeye said:
Thank you IDont and tphuang & Finn for answering the post by Kilo636.

moderators note..easy on the political comments..easy

Well, Popeye I would say that the belief that the US cannot take casualties has historically been a massive miscalculation. In both World Wars, Germany (certian generals in WWI, Hitler himself in WWII) dismissed US invlovement, believeing that the US was not wholeheartedly in the war and that they would drop out after one defeat. Yamamoto understood better, but still believed that the US would give in after enough bleeding and if Japan scored a quick string of victories. Kim Il Sung never thought that the US would make a stand in Korea once they realized the scale of operations it would entail. Even Saddam and Osama Bin Laden both believe/d that if they inflicted some casualties it would cow the Americans. All of them were wrong.

The key turning point is when the American public believes they are in an effort that is losing and/or not worth it and without a clear objective. Witness Vietnam and Iraq.

Just elaborating on my thoughts.

As for the submarine incident:

Each vessel carries a unique sonar signature that is differs from all other ships, even the ones from the same Class. If the Song was indeed tracked by US forces, chances are they not only know its Class but its name, penant number, who is her captain, her most recent overhaul, etc.

You're right Adeptius. Just like I said earlier, I wouldn't be suprised if the USN was able to use its pre-recorded knowledge of the Song's sound signature to pick it out of the background noise. The USN did the same thing to Soviet subs. In the process of tailing PLAN platforms (submarine and surface), it is quite possible that some USN vessels have had their signatures captured by the PLAN.

mehdi · Nov 20, 2006

It is was that simple as you stated how come they didn't find out that the sub was stalking them??? Seems to be a new post cold era tactic DNT LET THE ENEMY KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW. Perhaps there's some kind of unclear strategy going now. It's my opinion and I stick to it.

God bless well anyone lol

Chinese sub surfaces undetected behind USS Kitty Hawk

maozedong

Banned Idiot

rock3times

Just Hatched

Kilo636

Banned Idiot

tphuang

Lieutenant General

Finn McCool

Captain

mehdi

Junior Member

IDonT

Senior Member

bd popeye

The Last Jedi

Finn McCool

Captain

mehdi

Junior Member