Chinese sub surfaces undetected behind USS Kitty Hawk

tphuang said:

not exactly the same issue, but I guess this incident might have coincided with this latest statement





On the issue itself, the incident is reported by Bill Gertz. I honestly take stuff that he reports with little credence. I remember the media reported several incidences where a Chinese sub supposedly went undetected and surfaced outside its usual operating circle. But then gf0021-aust from DT said that it was pretty much tracked the entire way. So, for me, it's a little hard to believe something by a China threat guy like Bill Gertz. Besides, what the heck is this sub doing trying to show up a carrier?

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gf0021-aust ?? He everytime says that. :rofl: He is someone who cannot believe PRC is capable of doing anything impressive. Just treat his words like Bill Gertz..

If anybody can remember during 1996 of North Korean sub intruding into the south? Those subs went undetected and was only discovered after a sub ram ashore. One sub even went directly under a net of ASW during an exercise between of USN and South Korean Navy. Don't tell me those north korean sub r the latest most advance version available that time that can evade any western subs?

Yes,the scenario r much different. But my point is even a very inferior NK sub can do that. Why can't a far more advance Song have the chance to get near a CVN within its firing range without detected? Those so call expert just can't believe the advancement of Chinese.

Kilo636 said:

gf0021-aust ?? He everytime says that. :rofl: He is someone who cannot believe PRC is capable of doing anything impressive. Just treat his words like Bill Gertz..

If anybody can remember during 1996 of North Korean sub intruding into the south? Those subs went undetected and was only discovered after a sub ram ashore. One sub even went directly under a net of ASW during an exercise between of USN and South Korean Navy. Don't tell me those north korean sub r the latest most advance version available that time that can evade any western subs?

Yes,the scenario r much different. But my point is even a very inferior NK sub can do that. Why can't a far more advance Song have the chance to get near a CVN within its firing range without detected? Those so call expert just can't believe the advancement of Chinese.

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I've learnt not to argue with gf0021-aust a long time ago. In terms of credibility, Bill Gertz has none as far as I'm concerned, except as a certified China threat amplifier. I'm not sure about the North Korean sub incident. But this story has all the writings of an intentional leak.

Also, I totally agree with Jeff. For sure, you can fire your AShM from far out, but if you can actually get to within 5 mile of the target, and fire multiple torpedoes and Anti-ship missiles at the carrier, that would be far more dangerous.

Dear Crob:

I took the chance to check out all the Song pics I had downloaded and I must admit you're right - the seven-bladed large-diameter skewed propeller is definitely the one mounted. It appears that I mistook some sort of emblem (a wreath of some sort) that was pasted over the prop for the prop itself.

Deepest apologies for the wild goose chase, gotta have my eyes checked again.

Regards,

Dusky Lim

Getting inside the ring, like where this Song was at less than five miles is where a sub will need to be to inflict maximum damage on a carrier....even then, a US nuclear carrier is VERY fast, and may be able to outrun most torpedoes unless they are launched within a mile or two and moving at well over 50 knots

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The top speed of a Nimitz class is classified.It is in excess of 30 knots. But I sure thye can go at a much greater speed than that.

Of course, that was aided by the fact that the Kitty Hawk's itinerary was posted on the Internet

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True to a point. Those locations are posted after the fact on an no-offical USN web site.... BUT everytime the Kitty Hawk departs or arrives in any port it is posted on navy.mil. Any excersises that the USN conducts with the JMSDF are posted in advance on navy.mil. and Ahemmmm now why does the USN do this?...Anyone want to guess?

Kilo636 said:

gf0021-aust ?? He everytime says that. :rofl: He is someone who cannot believe PRC is capable of doing anything impressive. Just treat his words like Bill Gertz..
If anybody can remember during 1996 of North Korean sub intruding into the south? Those subs went undetected and was only discovered after a sub ram ashore. One sub even went directly under a net of ASW during an exercise between of USN and South Korean Navy. Don't tell me those north korean sub r the latest most advance version available that time that can evade any western subs?
Yes,the scenario r much different. But my point is even a very inferior NK sub can do that. Why can't a far more advance Song have the chance to get near a CVN within its firing range without detected? Those so call expert just can't believe the advancement of Chinese.

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Thanks for pointing it out!
As a former CV-63 crewmember, I got to say something about the internet allegation.
1. "EMAIL MATURITY"-every once in a while, we were reminded NOT TO DISCLOSE ANYTHING ABOUT THE SHIP'S MOVEMENT when emailing messages out. If the onboard censors found those, not only those messages were not sent out, but the sailor involved would find him(her)self in very hot water, and email priveleges could be turned off for the entire ship!
2. Even if the info. about CV-63 is dislosed on the Navy , it doesn't include precise coordinates, course & speed at any given time! So, to use the internet dislosures to berate PLAN capabilities is as shallow and flimsy as saying that and other chiefs won at the Littlle Big Horn because they must have studied at the military academy!

What BLUEJACKET says is very correct. But never the less. The info is there and If you want to know when the Hawk leaves and enters port just go to navy.mil or COM &th FLt web site.

The information posted there is just general information and is for public consumption. No there is no classified info there. Just enough to keep a person intrested. It is updated daily.

The excersises/flight operations held by the USN and JMSDF have been held in the same operating areas for decades. Not much has changed.

Jeff Head said:

Both of those scenarios (Club2 at 200 miles, or wave homing at 20 miles) would be ineffective against a US nuclear powered carrier. AEGIS will knock down the Clubs, unless there are very many of them (like 20-30). And a wave homer from 20 miles? Far too much time for the target to react and either turn away or otherwise avoid the torpedo...becaue they will hear the launch and hear it coming.

Getting inside the ring, like where this Song was at less than five miles is where a sub will need to be to inflict maximum damage on a carrier....even then, a US nuclear carrier is VERY fast, and may be able to outrun most torpedoes unless they are launched within a mile or two and moving at well over 50 knots.

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Modern wake-homing torpedoes can hit speed of 60 kt at terminal velocity. I also believe they are variable speed. They can cruise at slow speed toward their targets(making minimal noise), and then kick in at 60 kt for the kill at close range. The carrier can turn as much as it wants, but it does little good, the wake-homer just follows the ship's wake wherever it's turning.

BLUEJACKET said:

2. Even if the info. about CV-63 is dislosed on the Navy

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, it doesn't include precise coordinates, course & speed at any given time! So, to use the internet dislosures to berate PLAN capabilities is as shallow and flimsy as saying that Sitting Bull and other chiefs won at the Littlle Big Horn because they must have studied at the military academy!

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Come on Bluejacket...this is really an inane and terrible stretch of a statement IMHO. The US Military academies at the time of Sitting Bull had no way, even if a Sioux Indian were attending on any given day, to get that information out to the hostile Indians within 10-12 weeks...by which time the info would have been dated to the point of being useles.

On the other hand, in todays information age, information indicating exactly where and when a CSG is orignating from and traveling to...even without the actual course being given, is easily transmitted to anyone who wants it and the known transit points, choke points, or AO can be covered very quickly in advance of the approaching CSG.

The US Navy per sey is not at war with another maritime power so this low level information is circulated now for the sake of the families, PR, and other diplomatic and political considerations. But it is information that would be useful to a maritime belligerent, and can be used today by nations to try and gather G2 and test and monitor US responses and procedures. To think otherwise is simply ludicrous IMHO.

This is not to berate the Song or Yuan class boats or any other in any way. They still have to pick the right spot and wait quietly and undetected to accomplish the mission. But itt is to say that they have a huge advantage in non-war time conditions that would not exist during major hostilities.

coolieno99 said:

Modern wake-homing torpedoes can hit speed of 60 kt at terminal velocity. I also believe they are variable speed. They can cruise at slow speed toward their targets(making minimal noise), and then kick in at 60 kt for the kill at close range. The carrier can turn as much as it wants, but it does little good, the wake-homer just follows the ship's wake wherever it's turning.

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The launch of the torpedo will be detected, even at 15-20 miles...and a modern US nuclear carrier is fast enough, even if 60 knts is attained by the torpedo for short distances, to outrun the torpedo (meaning get far enough away and provide a closing speed that is slow enough that the torp will run out of fuel before it reaches the carrier) unless it is launched much closer in than that.

Jeff Head said:

Come on Bluejacket...this is really an inane and terrible stretch of a statement IMHO. The US Military academies at the time of Sitting Bull had no way, even if a Sioux Indian were attending on any given day, to get that information out to the hostile Indians within 10-12 weeks...by which time the info would have been dated to the point of being useles.
This is not to berate the Song or Yuan class boats or any other in any way. They still have to pick the right spot and wait quietly and undetected to accomplish the mission. But it is to say that they have a huge advantage in non-war time conditions that would not exist during major hostilities.

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I actualy read in a book about that battle (don't remember the name) saying that after Custer's defeat it was alleged by some that only a West Point military educated leader could destroy the 7th cavalry- it's not about communication in those days at all. They couldn't imagine a Native war chief outsmarting Western educated cavalry officer!

On the other hand, in todays information age, information indicating exactly where and when a CSG is orignating from and traveling to...even without the actual course being given, is easily transmitted to anyone who wants it and the known transit points, choke points, or AO can be covered very quickly in advance of the approaching CSG.

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- That's exactly my point! But even without those clues picked up from the net, a few subs, planes, , commercial shipping/fishing vessels & sattelites can pinpoint CSG location within a reasonable radius.

China's space-based surveillance and communications systems can detect and relay information on large US buildups. China's on-orbit collection systems include NRT imaging, ELINT, and SBWAS (radar). On-orbit communications systems include a Chinese-owned civilian constellation (serving Asia and Oceania) in LEO plus three military communications satellites in GEO. China also has replacement satellites and available launchers ready to go.
...the Chinese have

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-type arrays in both the Sea of Japan and the East China Sea. The Chinese used commercial ships during peacetime to deploy this system. It is connected via fiber-optic cable with a control center in China (undetermined location). It is a relatively crude system; quiet submarines can operate with little chance of detection. However, large-screw surface ships and submarines firing missiles are readily detected. As a result, US Navy ships capable of offensive operations will assume a high level of risk if they operate in either the Sea of Japan or the East China Sea. [OR THE SOUTH CHINA SEA, FOR THAT MATTER!]
The arrays are sensitive enough to let experts identify not only classes but specific submarines. In addition, SOSUS can monitor the movements of naval ships on the surface of the ocean and even aircraft flying low over it.

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And if the British got a SOSUS, it's not beyond the relam of possibility that the Chinese and others could deploy something similar too!

The US Navy per sey is not at war with another maritime power so this low level information is circulated now for the sake of the families, PR, and other diplomatic and political considerations [LIKE THE SHOW OF FORCE]. But it is information that would be useful to a maritime belligerent, and can be used today by nations to try and gather G2 and test and monitor US responses and procedures.

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Even in peacetime, ALL NAVY SHIPS ARE DARKENED WHEN UNDERWAY. So, I don't think anyone on them will like to discover that someone or something sneaked up on them without their knowledge ahead of time. At this point we don't know if CSG knew the whereabouts of that PLAN submarine.