Chinese semiconductor thread II

latenlazy

Brigadier
metal oxide hardmask resist is critical for EUV. Sn has a high EUV photon absorption cross section but V is very low. Wonder what the function of V is - maybe some sort of energy transfer mechanism to the alkyl chains? Patents won't go deep into this I think. Need an original paper.
Maybe also quencher for secondary emissions.

EDIT: See attached. Vanadium oxide might offer several beneficial characteristics including the two we just speculated on.
 
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Franklin

Captain

Nvidia’s AI chips are cheaper to rent in China than US​

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Just because the US government says that NVIDIA isn't allow to sale their most advanced AI chips to China doesn't mean that China won't be able to get their hands on those chips. Its a widely produced and commercially available product and China has both the contacts and the money to buy them from third parties aka the black market. China of course will have to pay a premium on those chips but for China's AI efforts its well worth it.
 

GiantPanda

Junior Member
Registered Member
Just because the US government says that NVIDIA isn't allow to sale their most advanced AI chips to China doesn't mean that China won't be able to get their hands on those chips. Its a widely produced and commercially available product and China has both the contacts and the money to buy them from third parties aka the black market. China of course will have to pay a premium on those chips but for China's AI efforts its well worth it.

It is a matter of degrees of separation.

1) You can sanction China in the 1st degree.

2) So Chinese firms buy from re-sellers in Japan in the 2nd degree.

3) If a local governments allied to US like Japan cracks down then Japanese re-sellers can sell to Thailand who then sell to China in the 3rd degree of separation.

Now the 2nd degree of separation doesn't include only Japan but many nations. And then even more nations in the third degree when re-sellers radiate to avoid local bans. Pretty soon you'll have to involve the whole world to keep these chips from reaching China at which point you'll probably wreck Nvidia's international business.

Under US law, if enforced to the fullest Nvidia theoritically needs to not only check who they sell to but also who their customers sell to and so on and so forth down the rabbit hole.

At some point, you'll just need to develop a blind eye if you want to sell globally.

And we haven't gotten into gray areas where people smuggle directly to China to profit from cutting out middle men in the 2nd and 3rd degrees of separations or simply buying currently unbanned devices that contain Nvidia chips.
 
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gelgoog

Brigadier
Registered Member
Gray market imports. Russia is doing the same thing.
They cannot easily stop such imports when these products are so commonly available.

The only way to stop it would be to require strict export licenses on a per customer basis like they used to do with Cray computers back in the Cold War. But this would make those chips a boutique product and possibly uneconomical to develop.
 

chgough34

Junior Member
Registered Member
It is a matter of degrees of separation.

1) You can sanction China in the 1st degree.

2) So Chinese firms buy from re-sellers in Japan in the 2nd degree.

3) If a local governments allied to US like Japan cracks down then Japanese re-sellers can sell to Thailand who then sell to China in the 3rd degree of separation.

Now the 2nd degree of separation doesn't include only Japan but many nations. And then even more nations in the third degree when re-sellers radiate to avoid local bans. Pretty soon you'll have to involve the whole world to keep these chips from reaching China at which point you'll probably wreck Nvidia's international business.

Under US law, if enforced to the fullest Nvidia theoritically needs to not only check who they sell to but also who their customers sell to and so on and so forth down the rabbit hole.

At some point, you'll just need to develop a blind eye if you want to sell globally.

And we haven't gotten into gray areas where people smuggle directly to China to profit from cutting out middle men in the 2nd and 3rd degrees of separations or simply buying currently unbanned devices that contain Nvidia chips.
Adding administrative costs and friction and making large-scale purchases/projects off limits (large data centers made from smuggled parts is highly inefficient and of course, no way Nvidia can give technical assistance for it) or prohibitively difficult is part of the intent. Resources are not infinite
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
What attached?
Sorry. Looks like the screenshot I wanted to throw in was too big lol. But here’s the paper I was trying to excerpt from. Somewhere in there it discusses some potential benefits of using

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While trying to find the paper again also stumbled on this one that I think is a good overview for some of the chemistries involved in potential EUV photoresists.

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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Sorry. Looks like the screenshot I wanted to throw in was too big lol. But here’s the paper I was trying to excerpt from. Somewhere in there it discusses some potential benefits of using

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While trying to find the paper again also stumbled on this one that I think is a good overview for some of the chemistries involved in potential EUV photoresists.

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Very interesting.

In addition, it is shown that non-equilibrium electrochemical oxidation leads to the formation of metastable vanadium oxides with extremely high sensitivity to laser () and electron-beam () irradiation. Such films are of considerable technical interest, particularly because of potential applications as an efficient resist material for both photonanolithography and electron-beam nanolithography.
Non-equilibrium electrochemical oxidation (at a very high initial current density, under volstatic conditions at V  20 V, and for a relatively short time, ∼1min)leads to the formation of metastable vanadium oxides with extremely high sensitivity to laser (E0∼ 1mJcm−2)and electron-beam (D0∼ 10 µCcm−2) irradiation

However, this study does not go into EUV wavelengths and it is still questionable as to the interaction with Sn.

I've searched a whole bunch for V oxide and tin with EUV, and can't find much other literature.
 
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