Chinese semiconductor thread II

tphuang

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That is not how it typically works in China. The IPO money is used to finance corporate expansion.


China should respond by invalidating all of ASML's patents.

China should also forbid any Chinese companies from setting up their European HQ in the Netherlands. The Netherlands gets their income by operating as a giant tax heaven corporate scam.

Chinese government has honestly been way too lenient on these chip sanctions. Still refusing to even invalidate patents by AMAT and Lam in China.

It's clear that ASML hasn't done a good job of lobbying Dutch government here. They had threatened to leave Netherlands last year and all that got them is further restrictions. At this point, China has to put real pressure on ASML.
 

gelgoog

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It's clear that ASML hasn't done a good job of lobbying Dutch government here. They had threatened to leave Netherlands last year and all that got them is further restrictions. At this point, China has to put real pressure on ASML.
There is little ASML can do, even if they wanted to, their light sources for DUV machines come from the US (Cymer).

China has no reason to protect the IP of companies which refuse to sell and support products in China.
 

gelgoog

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The article itself mentions that it was due to a leadership change in the Netherlands
The article is wrong then. It has nothing to do with the leadership there. As if US vassals have any saying in this. At best they can delay.

The Dutch company’s chip-making equipment, the most advanced in the industry, is sold with maintenance agreements that are essential to keep them running. Withdrawing such support could render at least some of them inoperable as soon as next year.
I remember hearing that Russia would not be able to keep Western aircraft running for a month with the sanctions and that they would have to start cannibalizing aircraft. It has been over two years and no such thing happened.

China will just make replacement parts for any consumables and easily broken parts to operate these tools. There are enough Western chip making machine tools in China to make this economically viable. You are talking about a third of the world's semi capacity here.

News reported previously that the Biden administration threatened the use of the FDPR to get allies to come on board.
In other words if the tools have even a single screw made in the US they won't allow them to be exported. This is nothing new.

The Dutch government under former Prime Minister Mark Rutte resisted US pressure to add restrictions on servicing, arguing for more time to evaluate the impact of export bans on high-end chip-making equipment.
The new government headed by Schoof, a former spy chief, has signaled a wary approach to China. The Netherlands has to be “very careful” in talks with Beijing over national security, he told Bloomberg News in an interview this month.”
It would eventually happen regardless of who is the head of the government.

The US lost their share of the lithography market in the first place because of their export restrictions on semi tools. Japan made their own lithography tools (Nikon, Canon) to go around their restrictions. And then ASML in the Netherlands gained preeminence as a tools vendor for TSMC. This is a direct result of the initial investment Phillips made in TSMC, since ASML also came out of Philips.
 

ansy1968

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SMEE needs competition. China should at least have two lithography vendors.

Their lithography tools still seem to have no major wins except in packaging. Compared with the success of other semi tools vendors in China SMEE is kind of disappointing.
What is important are the components providers like RS LASER, Duvi Photoresist, lens and optics, U-precision like their work bench. There are many potential competitors cause SMEE is an integrator, Huawei and CETC can do the job and may have been doing so. Plus NO news is good news, we may well be surprise that they have produce at least 24 units of SSA800A as of AUGUST this year, 3 machine per month. My evidence are based as of late 2023 when they had delivered at least 2 machine in DECEMBER alone.

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Aug 1, 2023 — China, reportedly, will launch its first 28-nanometer homegrown lithography machine at the year-end, representing a great leapfrog for the nation's chip ...
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Aug 2, 2023 — Shanghai Micro Electronics Equipment (SMEE) is said to be able to deliver China's first home-grown 28-nm lithography machine by year-end.
 

ansy1968

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There is little ASML can do, even if they wanted to, their light sources for DUV machines come from the US (Cymer).
I tend to disagree regarding DUVi part , there are 2 Local providers that I can think of, one is RS LASER and the other one is CIOMP, so China had the wherewithal to replace the needed components to maintain their ASML DUVI machine.

What ASML may do to maintain their business in China is to use domestic parts or even established a local subsidiaries to service those machine.
 

tokenanalyst

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SMEE needs competition. China should at least have two lithography vendors.
That is going to happen sooner than later, there are many other litho companies entering the space, specially in the packaging and power market, that will put pressure in SMEE to focus more in front end lithography machines and that is really bad news for ASML because the Chinese government could push for the use of SMEE machines.

there is also the probability of NAURA and ACM expanding the offering with dry DUV litho machines, given that China is building the most comprehensive lithography subsystem ecosystem in the planet, unless these suppliers are exclusive to SMEE could allow other players to enter market.
Their lithography tools still seem to have no major wins except in packaging. Compared with the success of other semi tools vendors in China SMEE is kind of disappointing.
That what you can see, the internet only allows to scan the surface but things in China go deeper, I am pretty sure that SMEE has advance immersion machines already running and patterning wafers, their recent announce give an insight, particularly the wording of Holistic metrology that means that this tool is mean to work in a close loop with the immersion scanner, the coating developing tool, AEI and ADI metrology tools, DJEL EBI tools.
1724942806686.png
1724942882651.png

Why they haven't announced yet? I think SMEE is facing pressure from SMIC, YMTC, ASML and others to keep their tools quiet in order to avoid more bans and export controls.
 

chgough34

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What is important are the components providers like RS LASER, Duvi Photoresist, lens and optics, U-precision like their work bench. There are many potential competitors cause SMEE is an integrator, Huawei and CETC can do the job and may have been doing so. Plus NO news is good news, we may well be surprise that they have produce at least 24 units of SSA800A as of AUGUST this year, 3 machine per month. My evidence are based as of late 2023 when they had delivered at least 2 machine in DECEMBER alone.

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Aug 1, 2023 — China, reportedly, will launch its first 28-nanometer homegrown lithography machine at the year-end, representing a great leapfrog for the nation's chip ...
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Aug 2, 2023 — Shanghai Micro Electronics Equipment (SMEE) is said to be able to deliver China's first home-grown 28-nm lithography machine by year-end.
I understand the rumor mills as the SMEE is under testing and has been “delivered” but for an article published in 2023 that claims it would be delivered by year-end, it feels quite dated given we are now nearing September 2024
 
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MortyandRick

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Yup. The export controls are multifaceted - not only are they about denying the most obvious technology, they also reduce technology transfer through more tacit forms (ex., engineers from the Netherlands going to China to transfer implicit knowledge), they reduce competition within China’s wafer fab equipment market and create rent seekers, and they create a chilling effect on trade/investment on all stripes of corporates even when legal
Again wrong.
Complacency would only be the case if there are no other competition at all. But there is competition in chip production with TSMC and other foundries and there are better machines to strive towards, this is more than enough to galvanize SMEE and other chip equipment makers to catch up and reach cutting edge.

The sanctions would actually make Chinese foundries use more Chinese equipment and give feedback and improve further iterations, and more money to advance. This improve faster.
 
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