From the same YT provider, I believed that SMIC DUAL Approach strategy is a success, using ASML to attain core competency in 14nm and 7nm while silently introduce a domestic alternative, @tonyget bro I understand your argument and respect your view, BUT from what I seeing 14nm and 7nm demand is strong in China and SMIC will do its utmost to gain market share. From what I learned from this thread from our esteem members going from 28nm planar to 14nm Finfet is the most difficult, BUT IF a breakthrough had been achieved going from 14nm to 7nm is much easier as they use the same processes.
Chinese semiconductor industry
- Thread starter Hendrik_2000
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@WTAN @tokenanalyst @Oldschool @FairAndUnbiased and other esteem experts, good day, I have a selfish request, from the video can you explain the following and their usage.
1)CIOPM (Changchun Institute of Optics and Mechanics) Dual wavelength laser coaxial output system.
2) CAS (China Academy of Science) Institute of High Energy Physics develop an adjustable Extreme Ultraviolet light source tech? Adjustable?
3)Sichuan University develop a 13.5 light source that can be use on DUVL, EUVL and other high end Lithography body a LPP?
From my understanding all three are possible candidates for EUVL power source and the video didn't even report the upcoming SSMB project. IF my prognosis are correct we may see a Chinese EUVL in the immediate future using 4 different power source.
1)CIOPM (Changchun Institute of Optics and Mechanics) Dual wavelength laser coaxial output system.
2) CAS (China Academy of Science) Institute of High Energy Physics develop an adjustable Extreme Ultraviolet light source tech? Adjustable?
3)Sichuan University develop a 13.5 light source that can be use on DUVL, EUVL and other high end Lithography body a LPP?
From my understanding all three are possible candidates for EUVL power source and the video didn't even report the upcoming SSMB project. IF my prognosis are correct we may see a Chinese EUVL in the immediate future using 4 different power source.
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There is one fab in China that can not get any American equipment at all，FuJian JinHua.
JinHua is still trying to procure non-american equipments，judging from their recent bidding infos. If JinHua can start to produce chips，then we can safely assume that Chinese fabs can live without American companies，before that I don't see how Chinese fabs can survive without American equipments.
Just few days ago，CEO of HuaHong reiterate that the company has VEU qualification from US Commerce Department，and they will make sure that they comply with the law set by US Commerce Department. That just tells you how important it is for HuaHong to maintain the supply from the US.
For those who say SMIC is building new 28nm fabs instead of 14nm fabs，because of "production capacity bottleneck” of domestic equipment manufactures.
Let's assume that new fabs need 1000 new equipments，does it make any difference to produce 1000 14nm equipments vs 1000 28nm equipments in terms of time？If not，then the only explaination that SMIC is not building 14nm fab is because domestic equipment is not up to task for 14nm node at the moment.
Let's assume that new fabs need 1000 new equipments，does it make any difference to produce 1000 14nm equipments vs 1000 28nm equipments in terms of time？If not，then the only explaination that SMIC is not building 14nm fab is because domestic equipment is not up to task for 14nm node at the moment.
I think it's important to remember that this is just a forum on the internet, and that nothing here actually impacts the real world.
Winning an argument here will not magically speed up China's semiconductor progress, nor will overhyping China's current capabilities.
Losing an argument here will not slow down China's progress either.
I appreciate members like @tokenanalyst because they provide concrete and verifiable updates on China's development in this sector without much BS. And I appreciate members like @tonyget for deflating the hype bubbles and bringing us back down to a more realistic assessment of China's semiconductor capabilities and problems.
Winning an argument here will not magically speed up China's semiconductor progress, nor will overhyping China's current capabilities.
Losing an argument here will not slow down China's progress either.
I appreciate members like @tokenanalyst because they provide concrete and verifiable updates on China's development in this sector without much BS. And I appreciate members like @tonyget for deflating the hype bubbles and bringing us back down to a more realistic assessment of China's semiconductor capabilities and problems.
Yet we have seen with some of the recent bids that the equipments were mostly Chinese companies with no American ones. Does not mean American suppliers are definitely not needed. I think we will have to wait and see.
Whatever issues jinhua has does not amount to proving anything. They have their own requirement and financial resources which people on this forum are unlikely to have access to.
Why would huahong not want to maintain supply from america? More supplier sources mean more choices with fewer restrictions and negotiation power.
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Yes. You can use second hand or older equipment that is already in stock for 28 nm equipment. 14 nm equipment is newer by definition, there are less second hand ones on the market and new ones are being sold.
For etch and deposition, X nm equipment isn't exclusively for that process node since they don't go by etch/deposition chemistry. FinFET requires different types of etch and deposition chemistry than planar. Etch and deposition tools suitable for FinFET are competing with other major customers, while those suitable for planar processes aren't.
Production bottleneck is being seen all over the world, this is not an unbacked claim. Lead times went from 6 months to 8 months in 2021 and 18 months in 2022.
I suggest you familiarize yourself with industry literature and trends before making sweeping conclusions. We have given you a wealth of information that makes it easy to understand the industry.
Can't view the video. But in general I am not an expert in EUV, only know about certain portions like cleaning. The reality is that with thousands of moving parts, there's just too much in EUV for any one person to claim expertise. Someone who uses the system might be the expert in actually using EUV but has no idea of the vacuum system used, or how to design the in situ clean the optics, or how to make the optics, or how to make the wafer stage, etc.
I sent readers of this thread a link to my article on SMIC and 7nm. It is here to re-read:
If you look at the end, you will see that getting to 7nm with DUV is a matter of multiple patterning processes - deposition-etch-lithography. And the lithography is DUV immersion.
Any equipment from Applied Materials, Lam Research, and Tokyo Electron for deposition and etch are allowed by US Commerce. So there are no restrictions on SMIC getting to 7nm without EUV. If TSMC can do it so can SMIC.
@tinrobert Thank you sir! with SMEE SSA800 DUVL coming online, there are consensus even among US policy makers that further restriction is unworkable and staying the present course is the best action. When China unveil its own EUVL then all restriction will be rescind as there NO reason to maintain it. Again thanks for the info and keep on posting.
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