Chinese semiconductor industry

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coolieno99

Junior Member
Hi coolieno99,

but there could be patent issues with LPP

Do SMEE and CIOMP need to abide? Are there any more repercussion since they are already sanction?
One can get around the patent issue of LPP by redesigning and making improvement of ASML LPP design. But as far as the concept of using laser to excite tin atoms to emit EUV is patentable, this I do not know. Maybe someone here might know if this is possible.

Here are links to China's research and development to EUV litho tool. Note that some of the publications go back to at least the year 2013. They started EUV R&D well before the U.S. sanctions.

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coolieno99

Junior Member
Everybody is doing LPP because its more efficient. US cymer, Japan Gigaphoton and Germany Trumpf. No one is using DPP.
Keep on doing DPP you gonna have an inferior product.

This is true of today. But there are Chinese scientists who believe that DPP has better potential and may outperform LPP in the future.
Nevertheless, the central government is setting a 2-track research and development to support research and development for both LPP and DPP. It's costly, but China has the money and manpower to do it.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Everybody is doing LPP because its more efficient. US cymer, Japan Gigaphoton and Germany Trumpf. No one is using DPP.
Keep on doing DPP you gonna have an inferior product.
“By numbers alone, LPP appears to vastly outperform DPP. The eventual power goal for EUV volume production is 250 watts. (The brighter the light, the less time the wafer needs to be exposed to it.) In April, Gigaphoton reported that its LPP prototype met a major benchmark, producing 104 W. Contrast that with Xtreme's DPP technology, which produces only 34 W.

So it's a bit surprising that ASML has also expressed faith in that seemingly inferior technology. "There is a chance that one of the 3100s will be fitted with a DPP source," an ASML spokesperson told IEEE Spectrum. And ASML's Noreen Harned says future EUV machines will be "source agnostic." These NXE3300 machines, due to ship in 2012, will allow customers to plug in either LPP or DPP.

The two LPP firms and Xtreme "all have credible plans," says Harned, who is ASML's vice president of technology marketing. Though she acknowledges that Xtreme's source is not yet ready for ASML's scanner, she still insists that her company expects that it will be. ASML knows what Xtreme is doing to boost its machine's output, Harned says. "We think it's going to catch up."

Chaohai Zhang, a professor of electrical engineering at Harbin Institute of Technology, in China, who studies DPP sources, thinks it will more than catch up. He says DPP may surpass LPP in the long run for four reasons: It uses power more efficiently, is smaller, keeps the
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, and should last longer. LPP requires wall-plug power an order of magnitude higher than DPP to produce the same number of photons, says Marc Corthout, president of Xtreme. The DPP architecture also takes up less space, which is at a premium inside the EUV tool. Finally, Xtreme mitigates EUV's well-known contamination problems with a trap that prevents tin droplets from spattering the collector mirror and thereby dimming the EUV light. Corthout says less contamination contributes to DPP's greater longevity.


And there's one more thing, according to Corthout: The reported source power numbers that make DPP look so unappealing may be misleading. Industry insiders acknowledge that there is no standard for reporting the power of these systems. Gigaphoton's 104 W, for example, was delivered in very short blasts. While Xtreme's DPP power may appear low, it is continuous.

Corthout maintains that a lithography tool will be more effective with a continuous beam of light. Cymer disputes that claim, but there are no concrete data yet to prove it either way.”

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“Everyone” is doing LPP because “everyone” is only one firm. There is only one EUV lithograph maker on the market right now. If China has a DPP light source that’s 150 watts then DPP will suffice just fine. There’s nothing inherently inferior about DPP over LPP.
 

Tyler

Captain
Registered Member
This is true of today. But there are Chinese scientists who believe that DPP has better potential and may outperform LPP in the future.
Nevertheless, the central government is setting a 2-track research and development to support research and development for both LPP and DPP. It's costly, but China has the money and manpower to do it.
How many people are needed for each project?
 

weig2000

Captain
It's a loss for Huawei, no doubt about it. The current telecom equipment market environment in Europe has been highly politicized. So you have to take it. But see the market share reports in the two posts above yours. Huawei continues to do well. Besides, China's 5G equipment market is the largest in the world at least from the mobile base station standpoint. It continues to dominate the Chinese market, and I expect Nokia and Ericsson will shed some market shares there.

It's unfortunate we have to live through this. It all started because the US felt its tech dominance was under threat and Huawei became its target, without any evidence. Many European countries, despite repeated resistance from telecom companies and even some government officials, had to succumb to the pressure from the US government. European countries are just not strong enough to stand on their own. That's the reality. Otherwise, how do you explain that Huawei has been operating in Europe for over two decades now with telecom customers in pretty much every country there and, all of a sudden, Huawei's equipment aren't accepted now because China is a one-party country?!

I'm assuming you have a pretty good understanding of this Huawei situation, and we don't need to get into more discussions/arguments. Suffice it to say, no one emerges out of it as a clear winner now, but Huawei will survive this and come out stronger in a couple of years. We will see.

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stock jumped close to 7% on Wednesday, as the
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company beat sales and profit expectations in the third quarter, helped by 5G contracts in China.

The company’s gross margins also reached their highest level since 2006, while the Covid-19 pandemic continued to have a “limited impact” on performance.

Total revenue rose 1% to 57.5 billion Swedish krona ($6.6 billion), while underlying sales—adjusted for comparable sales and currency—grew 7%, driven by 5G sales in China, where the company is a partner of the top three service providers.
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to SEK5.35 billion from a loss of SEK6.23 billion, beating the FactSet consensus of SEK4.15 billion.

Ericsson further strengthened its position in the third quarter and has now secured 112 global 5G contracts, up from 99 at the
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. Chief Executive Börje Ekholm said: “The 5G contracts in mainland China have developed according to plan, contributing positively to profits in Q3 and are expected to improve further.” Sales from its Networks unit grew by 13% on an underlying basis, as 5G momentum also continued in the U.S. and the Middle East.

It comes as
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, including the U.S., have blocked Chinese company Huawei from next-generation 5G wireless networks. Sweden became the
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to block Huawei earlier this week, citing security concerns.

But the move may impact Ericsson’s success in China. The country’s foreign ministry said on Wednesday that Sweden should reverse the ban to avoid a “negative impact” on Swedish companies in China.

When it comes to the Covid-19 pandemic, the telecommunications industry has been largely sheltered from it, as increased working from home has led to a surge in demand.

The Stockholm-listed company said its year-to-date performance strengthened its confidence in meeting 2020 targets. It added that the pandemic had so far had limited impact on the business. “While the pandemic has hurt revenues for several of our customers, and in some cases this has led to a reduction of capex, we have not seen any negative impact on our business, largely due to footprint gains,” Ekholm said in a statement.

Looking ahead. “Ericsson looks to be well positioned to benefit from the 5G cycle,” said Kepler Cheuvreux analysts, adding that its “valuation looks reasonably attractive.” They retained a buy rating on the stock with a target price of SEK110, up from SEK105.80 in early trading on Wednesday.

UBS analysts said adjusted earnings in the third quarter came in 31% above the market consensus as gross margins rose on the back of software sales, and that the consensus for full-year earnings would be likely to rise by mid-single digits.

Security concerns and moves to block Huawei have helped Ericsson pick up more 5G contracts. At the same time it has had success in China, unlike its rival
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, which has
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from Chinese telecom companies. Tensions between Sweden and China may be of concern, but Ericsson expects further improvement in China and is well placed to capitalize on the global 5G rollout.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
hi weig2000

From my understanding , Ericsson source most of its parts from Chinese tech company and Australia from its own dismay learned about it only recently.. LOL.... ;)

The CCP knows the trade off, most Western vendor had manufacturing plant and also source their parts in China, It is foolish to ban them only to hurt yourself, they also provide new tech and force local company to innovate more to compete.
 
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