Chinese semiconductor industry

Status
Not open for further replies.

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
SMEE has a different way of describing the capabilities of its DUVL. Different to that of ASML.
ASML describes its DUVL as having a resolution.of 38nm.
SMEE describes its DUVL according to Node or Process Node. In other words the DUVL can produce 28nm ICs using a single exposure. It can do 14nm with double exposure. Etc.
There is not much Western Literature on the SMEE DUVL as it will be mainly be sold within China.
Chinese Govt also wants to keep this low profile just in case it excites people like Ron Vara amd Marco Rubio.
There is no point for SMEE to promote the product in English to Western countries.
Maybe one day.
And by the way this Machine actually exists.
A lack of Western Media reports about it and its specifications, does not mean it doesnt exist.
Any further debate about this matter is bacically a waste of time and Data.
@WTAN Sir pardon me it's an oxymoron for SMEE to advertise its product overseas or publicly since it is under sanction and restriction....LOL Some people made their judgment based on what they read from Western Publication and formerly I'm one of them, but coming to this forum knowing esteem members with expertise sharing knowledge from the Chinese perspective it widen my view and able to discern. And also the effect of getting SURPRISE A LOT!!! ;) That's China for you. @nlalyst bro stay around there will be more surprises coming in 2022 and we can have a lively conversation cause if you read the past discussion in this thread, most of them had come true while waiting for the result of the remaining next year .:cool:
 

horse

Colonel
Registered Member
Even despite all that I don't think his questions are invalid, and ultimately hashing out and trading notes on what the best sources are for "Chinese semiconductor watching" is also beneficial to the community at large.

But then again, this thread might be monitored, so perhaps openly discussing it may also be actively detrimental..

This should not matter because we are not talking about military secrets.

These RF chips and associated parts will wind up in a consumer product that is supposed to be sold to the masses. The consumer will want to know what they are buying.

Hiding these developments, is poor marketing. It is also a sign of weakness that Chinese companies must hide from the Americans.

No need to hide. Chairman Mao told everyone China had stood up.

Furthermore, there is a practical reason, that it does not matter if we discuss a RF chip.

The American Justice League can only ban or sanction something that exists. The American Justice League cannot ban a rumour.

The American Justice League was successful in banning Trump from the internet, lol, but they will not find the same success banning Chinese items in China.

Although I kind of wish The American Justice League would try. Show their impotence and rage to the world!

:D
 

Micron

Junior Member
Registered Member
@WTAN Sir pardon me it's an oxymoron for SMEE to advertise its product overseas or publicly since it is under sanction and restriction....LOL Some people made their judgment based on what they read from Western Publication and formerly I'm one of them, but coming to this forum knowing esteem members with expertise sharing knowledge from the Chinese perspective it widen my view and able to discern. And also the effect of getting SURPRISE A LOT!!! ;) That's China for you. @nlalyst bro stay around there will be more surprises coming in 2022 and we can have a lively conversation cause if you read the past discussion in this thread, most of them had come true while waiting for the result of the remaining next year .:cool:
Rule based International Order by USA such as its unilateral sanction is not International Law hence it is illegal and unenforceable. It should not affects SMEE. Only International Law by UN matters.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
So essentially the playing field summary (for my non-familiar pov) of comprehensive semiconductor fab technology and foundry capabilities places Taiwan and South Korea at the top followed by the US and Japan and China trailing those. 5nm, 7nm, and 28nm done and achieved (rest is about scaling which is being done as we speak). China is at 14nm and 7nm at low scale lab level. All these players own and mastered all the tech chains. They can do it all themselves and using equipment, tech, and tooling they have mastered and produce themselves.

Literally no one else in this club. Germany, UK, Netherlands and so on have some niche expertise within a certain part of the supply chain but do not have comprehensive mastery of the entire chain.

India is far behind with only foreign tooling and equipment and that's for 1990s and 2000s era chip fab and without a single mastery of any of the tech where it produces its own equipment that is core to the process as opposed to a rig to handle wafers for example.

On design, China leads with the absolute best of them using universal architectures.

It is estimated by western observers that within 10 years China's own foundries should be at 5nm and it does have diminishing validity of Moore's law working for it.

On the flip side of silicon, China is at the forefront of alternative tech research along with the US and possibly other major players in Taiwan and South Korea.

Taiwan and South Korea are getting forced to transfer tech to the US and build their fabs within the US. Their leaders aren't looking too kindly on this but they have little say in the matter.

So within silicon semiconductors, the top player will be the US within a few years with supply coming from Taiwan reducing dramatically.

China's own sanctioned exporters like Huawei are in a desperate situation for the meantime. They do not have smartphones or computing that can be as competitive once their inventory is depleted. They are diversifying into other industries but Huawei's core of telecommunications is strong and all of it is strong within China except smartphone side of business. They need to wait until the Chinese foundries can provide them with equivalent chip performance which are done on lab level and using alternative technologies which China has been leading such as various stacking techniques (necessity the mother of all invention). But how the gap will be in 3 to 5 years in unknown.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
So essentially the playing field summary (for my non-familiar pov) of comprehensive semiconductor fab technology and foundry capabilities places Taiwan and South Korea at the top followed by the US and Japan and China trailing those. 5nm, 7nm, and 28nm done and achieved (rest is about scaling which is being done as we speak). China is at 14nm and 7nm at low scale lab level. All these players own and mastered all the tech chains. They can do it all themselves and using equipment, tech, and tooling they have mastered and produce themselves.

Literally no one else in this club. Germany, UK, Netherlands and so on have some niche expertise within a certain part of the supply chain but do not have comprehensive mastery of the entire chain.

India is far behind with only foreign tooling and equipment and that's for 1990s and 2000s era chip fab and without a single mastery of any of the tech where it produces its own equipment that is core to the process as opposed to a rig to handle wafers for example.

On design, China leads with the absolute best of them using universal architectures.

It is estimated by western observers that within 10 years China's own foundries should be at 5nm and it does have diminishing validity of Moore's law working for it.

On the flip side of silicon, China is at the forefront of alternative tech research along with the US and possibly other major players in Taiwan and South Korea.

Taiwan and South Korea are getting forced to transfer tech to the US and build their fabs within the US. Their leaders aren't looking too kindly on this but they have little say in the matter.

So within silicon semiconductors, the top player will be the US within a few years with supply coming from Taiwan reducing dramatically.

China's own sanctioned exporters like Huawei are in a desperate situation for the meantime. They do not have smartphones or computing that can be as competitive once their inventory is depleted. They are diversifying into other industries but Huawei's core of telecommunications is strong and all of it is strong within China except smartphone side of business. They need to wait until the Chinese foundries can provide them with equivalent chip performance which are done on lab level and using alternative technologies which China has been leading such as various stacking techniques (necessity the mother of all invention). But how the gap will be in 3 to 5 years in unknown.
It's quite a bit more complex. Taiwan and South Korea are top tier in foundry capability but their equipment and chemicals are mostly imported. That is the mechanism by which Taiwan and South Korea can get squeezed:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


South Korea also has design weaknesses: note that they don't have too many independent semiconductor products except Samsung Exynos as a logic SoC and memory (Samsung, SK Hynix).
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
It's quite a bit more complex. Taiwan and South Korea are top tier in foundry capability but their equipment and chemicals are mostly imported. That is the mechanism by which Taiwan and South Korea can get squeezed:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


South Korea also has design weaknesses: note that they don't have too many independent semiconductor products except Samsung Exynos as a logic SoC and memory (Samsung, SK Hynix).

But they'll always have access to those equipment and materials and they are set up as the major global suppliers for forefront commercial products that depend on leading chips like smartphones.

But your point is taken. China is the only player other than the US that can get complete self reliance and comprehensive supply chain whilst not being affected by tech bans and tooling restrictions. The issue is China is at the moment just missing EUVL. Everything else is mastered or trivial to master.

EUVL has supposedly some alternatives for at least 7nm process. The only problem I'm seeing is the Huawei issue where they cannot compete due to China not having 7nm in large scale processes Huawei needs soon once their inventory runs out.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
But they'll always have access to those equipment and materials and they are set up as the major global suppliers for forefront commercial products that depend on leading chips like smartphones.

But your point is taken. China is the only player other than the US that can get complete self reliance and comprehensive supply chain whilst not being affected by tech bans and tooling restrictions. The issue is China is at the moment just missing EUVL. Everything else is mastered or trivial to master.

EUVL has supposedly some alternatives for at least 7nm process. The only problem I'm seeing is the Huawei issue where they cannot compete due to China not having 7nm in large scale processes Huawei needs soon once their inventory runs out.
Huawei can design around 7 nm. At that node something like 50% of the chip is dark silicon anyways.

Also, at this point Taiwan and SK also have to worry about getting cut off or being forced to give up commercial secrets.
 

Nutrient

Junior Member
Registered Member
China's IC market exceeds by far the IC production in China: $143 billion vs $22.7 billion, as I pointed out earlier. These are two different benchmarks. The 2025 goal was immensely ambitious and aimed to capture 70% of the bigger and not the smaller pie.
As @manqiangrexue said, China is just getting started. Your figure of $22.7 billion of $143 billion was for 2020. You deleted one of my most important statements, namely that
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. So just wait a short while: China will soon be manufacturing most of the semiconductors it needs.

Naturally China is producing the simpler, cheaper chips first; thus even when the country is producing 37% of its semiconductor needs, the dollar value of the locally-made chips is relatively low. However, "
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
". This means China will be finishing the more advanced designs, and therefore the more valuable chips, very soon. So again, just wait a little while.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top