Chinese semiconductor industry

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ansy1968

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I dont know why some people see TSMC as an "ally" or friend. TSMC has repeatedly taken action in order to handicap small Chinese Fab companies from growing and eventually competing with it

I dont care about TSMC or Samsung. As long as domestic EUV tool is made, then domestic Fabs should be set up and the foreign players should driven out and left with only about 10% of the domestic market in order to have competition

Foreign Fab companies have repeatedly shown that they are not trustworthy. TSMC is controlled by the US puppet Taiwan current Gov, while Samsung is controlled by S.Korea which is also a US puppet having US troops on its soil

Would you trust US puppets producing chips for your country? I don't.
@Overbom So true bro, I understand your feelings But I give my reason, aside from being the same ethnicity (possible unification) if given the chances their expertise will quicken the pace of Chinese IC development and it will operate in China therefore under Chinese control. We had see how Taiwanese compatriot like Mr Chang and Mr Liang help SMIC BIG time and those are individuals , we're talking a major Corporation here and it's the biggest fish in the pond.

There is a prevailing pattern, if a foreign corporation or company is successful so successful that it trump an American company, it will be sanctioned , restricted ,kidnap and even charge on farcical account. How low the US will get to remained number one, pathetic!
 
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Weaasel

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If SMEE systems are as good as you claim, why are they not used for processes under 90nm? Some publications I've read claim that even the 90nm SMEE tool is just a prototype, useless for mass manufacturing.

Getting the wafer stage and rest of the system performance to the level where you can do double, triple or quadruple patterning is just as challenging as getting the baseline resolution right. Complex features on 7nm require more than just double patterning with DUV immersion.

As far as I know, DUV cannot do 28nm. The physical limit is 32 nm. 28nm must refer to to the process name.

It's well understood in the industry that single exposure EUV products have superior electrical features to DUV multiple exposure products. Anyone stuck on DUV, will have a hard time to competing in performance.
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You are having a from and back with manqiangrexue, read this...Unbiased...
 

FairAndUnbiased

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You are having a from and back with manqiangrexue, read this...Unbiased...
She cited Dylan Patel, that's all I need to know.

All scientists use secondary sources when writing, but the difference is, unlike boba consultants scientists have the capability to evaluate secondary sources for reliability and can also either obtain primary sources or generate primary data themselves.
 

Topazchen

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China is already competitive in design with HiSilicon even if it doesn't meet all criteria just yet. You're going to see more and more companies in that class and quickly, and they are going to improve even more despite already being competitive on the world stage. Already too late for the US to do anything about that. I mean HiSilicon's revenue before COVID was the same as all of AMD.

Same with OSAT, already competitive worldwide not just domestically with a Chinese company (JCET). Too late for the US to do anything about this either. Will be easy for China to dominate this sector going forward.

As for SMIC (fabrication) it's not even a decade behind anymore. It's not neck and neck (US companies and ASML won't provide equipment which obviously limits <7nm volume production but that's not guaranteed to be a bottleneck when they're ramping up apparently for that in 2 years or less with indigenous equipment), but not a decade behind either. 14nm was volume manufactured in 2013 by leading-edge foundries so we're talking <8 years behind.

And in EDA China has Empyrean which is similarly less than a decade behind the leaders (Synopsys & Cadence). Hard for the US to do much more than it already has done yet Empyrean is still closing the gap quickly. Hard to measure in this field but I'd also say less than a decade behind here.

The only real serious gap here is in the Semicaps (equipment). The US dominates it (deposition, removal, cleaning, doping, etc.), with large single-segment monopolies by Japan (resist processing) and Netherlands (lithography). This is the area where China is struggling the most and I'd love to hear from people who know more about it. I've heard of the EUV problem potentially being solved as early as 2024, not sure if this is inside knowledge or can be backed up with publicly sourced info, but the other aspects of equipment are rarely talked about so would love to see more about that too.
Empyrean I believe is limited by node availability. The industry advances in parallel from EDA to foundry to packaging equipment .They are at 28nm and should be at 7nm in 2023/4.
Remember that it's easier to catch up than to push the frontier.

Just last week, Huawei founder said that chip making is just processes and sooner or later, Huawei and China will have the most advanced capabilities. I wouldn't bet against him
 

Weaasel

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SMEE has a different way of describing the capabilities of its DUVL. Different to that of ASML.
ASML describes its DUVL as having a resolution.of 38nm.
SMEE describes its DUVL according to Node or Process Node. In other words the DUVL can produce 28nm ICs using a single exposure. It can do 14nm with double exposure. Etc.
There is not much Western Literature on the SMEE DUVL as it will be mainly be sold within China.
Chinese Govt also wants to keep this low profile just in case it excites people like Ron Vara amd Marco Rubio.
There is no point for SMEE to promote the product in English to Western countries.
Maybe one day.
And by the way this Machine actually exists.
A lack of Western Media reports about it and its specifications, does not mean it doesnt exist.
Any further debate about this matter is bacically a waste of time and Data.
As long as Western sources, especially those from high profile mainstream media, such as the NYT, Washington Post, CNN, or the BBC do not report of the existence of the 28 nm machine, even Western tech niche sources reporting on its existence will not be believed by many persons who just have it in their mind that a Chinese company and Chinese citizens do not have the capability to produce very high resolution DUV machines. Imagine, that fellow mentioned sources that say that the 90 nm lithography machine is not capable of mass production. Nlalyst might even indeed believe that himself.
 

ansy1968

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As long as Western sources, especially those from high profile mainstream media, such as the NYT, Washington Post, CNN, or the BBC do not report of the existence of the 28 nm machine, even Western tech niche sources reporting on its existence will not be believed by many persons who just have it in their mind that a Chinese company and Chinese citizens do not have the capability to produce very high resolution DUV machines. Imagine, that fellow mentioned sources that say that the 90 nm lithography machine is not capable of mass production. Nlalyst might even indeed believe that himself.
@Weaasel bro, I'm waiting for @foofy info regarding its official handover? it may take a while but it will surely be a momentous event. The way the Chinese system works I bet an existing machine is already being put to its paces producing chips while waiting for a Feng shui expert for scheduled date ..LOL

Another one is the result of N+2 7nm chip mass production, Huawei 14nm 3D stacking Chiplet and an improve laser for DUVL and LPP. Hope to hear at least one of them before the year 2021 ends.
 

tokenanalyst

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What I actually said was that the SMEE's best system was qualified for a 90nm process. You claimed that 90nm actually refers to the physical resolution, of the system, but never provided any evidence. Do you have proof or not?

The one article that you did link confirms what I said:
90nm is the single feature resolution, it can be described as a simple equation based on the characteristic of the dry SMEE DUV machine, the light source is 193nm wavelength, the NA of the optics is 0.75, so the resolution is k * LS / NA 0.35 * (193 / 0.75) = 90 nm, this is the maximum resolution without any other enhancement like multiple pattern or computational lithography. Add better optics and you can get a better resolution. Add an immersion system and you can increase the resolution even more, but most of the resolution increase in DUVL after 45nm comes from the software, not the hardware, so ASML is right to worry about the boost of lithography from China because computational lithography is an area that the Chinese are really hard at work.

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tokenanalyst

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As far as I know, DUV cannot do 28nm. The physical limit is 32 nm. 28nm must refer to to the process name.
The physical limit using immersion lithography is 50nm for an NA of 1.35, that is why ASML can export machines to China because in theory their machine do not broke the 45nm of the Wassenaar Arrangement, made for EUV , but ASML can go as low a 38 using super resolution techniques with software and hardware to correct for aberrations, that is old technology. So is not far fetch to think that SMEE can archive 35-28nm.
 
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