Chinese semiconductor industry

Status
Not open for further replies.

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
There's always risks of contamination when doping but it's a doable task. This was already accomplished by the research team I referenced earlier who created vertical tunneling transistors. The research proved that graphene could be used for logic albeit with a lot of jerry rigging. That doesn't mean graphene is a realistic silicon alternative. That's why other 2D materials that are actual semiconductors are researched in parallel and touted as having actual potential like platinum sulfide. I would use the analogy of nuclear fusion research which is pie in the sky research while thorium salt reactors are becoming a proven commodity soon to be commercialized.



I have a theory that IF China can commercialize quad patterned 7nm DUV process, that it will collapse margins for every process node below 7nm including the leading edge. Sometime after 2026, the excess semiconductor capacity that will be laying idle combined with what will probably become a largely self sufficient China semiconductor market above >=7nm, along with China's supply chain cost advantages, will totally destroy the global semiconductor business model. The price/performance curve between what will become China's DUVi 7nm chips and all leading edge EUV performance chips, will not warrant the price discrepancy that currently exists between the leading edge processes and processes 3 generations older. Imagine having chips performing at say ~50% of the leading edge, consuming say 200-250% the energy, but costing 5-20 times less. :oops: It won't matter that China isn't at the leading edge when this happens. What will happen is, those at the leading edge will either be selling way less than they planned thus making way less money OR they will be dropping their prices to price discovery, collapsing their margins in the process and making way less money. Yes, there will always be sales of the very best, most power stingy, but most sales aren't in this category when the alternative will be literally 5-20 times less expensive. Either way, they will be earning far less income than what they expected with planning their capital and R&D budgets. I think mergers and bankruptcy are on the horizon for many of these leading edge semiconductor companies.
@krautmeister bro great summary as always, as they foresee the writing on the wall. the American semis industry panicked, instead of cooperation (keep your enemy closer) they choose restriction instead and a half assed effort. Restricting SMIC to 14nm may delay the inevitability but it had spurred the Chinese even more...lol
 
Last edited:

DarkStar

Junior Member
Registered Member
@krautmeister bro great summary as always, as they foresee the writing on the wall. the American semis industry panicked, instead of cooperation (keep your enemy closer) they choose restriction instead and a half assed effort. Restricting SMIC to 14nm may delay the inevitability but it had spurred the Chinese even more...lol
This is the very definition of race based societies inevitably failing due to the contradiction of myths of racial superiority having any bearing on reality.
White anglos believed China would never innovate or catch up, let alone supersede and surpass them.
That day has has all but arrived.
And now they're panicking.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
This is the very definition of race based societies inevitably failing due to the contradiction of myths of racial superiority having any bearing on reality.
White anglos believed China would never innovate or catch up, let alone supersede and surpass them.
That day has has all but arrived.
And now they're panicking.
@DarkStar and they claimed themselves being good in business...LOL, Brother there is a cardinal rule in business " never let your customer become your competitor" its a lose lose situation ,Relationship and goodwill is sacred. National security is used as an excuse for being uncompetitive and its harming them even more as complacency is abound especially if grabbing , stealing and bullying your way out is a norm.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
Now the reality bites as the cost of producing 5nm chips at FAB 21 is Five times more expensive as they compare that of Taiwan. @antonius123 bro the mass production date is 2024, as reported in the video all FABS had raise their price due to the shortage, now picture this as China 28nm mass production ensued next year and that of 14nm in 2023 and 7nm at 2024, they will flood the market as @krautmeister had summarized, those FABS in Arizona will become a big white elephant project. If Huawei and SMIC can able to produced a 7nm 3D stacking chipset, then tech wise we are even with the US (5nm Arizona FAB).

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

6.9K views
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Now the reality bites as the cost of producing 5nm chips at FAB 21 is Five times more expensive as they compare that of Taiwan. @antonius123 bro the mass production date is 2024, as reported in the video all FABS had raise their price due to the shortage, now picture this as China 28nm mass production ensued next year and that of 14nm in 2023 and 7nm at 2024, they will flood the market as @krautmeister had summarized, those FABS in Arizona will become a big white elephant project. If Huawei and SMIC can able to produced a 7nm 3D stacking chipset, then tech wise we are even with the US (5nm Arizona FAB).
7 nm 3D stacking chipsets from DUV multipatterning would absolutely destroy the markets for 5 nm from EUV. DUV is still far more cost effective due to the higher intensity light source and no need for vacuum. DUV is also transferrable to bigger process sizes like 14 nm, 28 nm while EUV is only cost effective for <14 nm.
 

antonius123

Junior Member
Registered Member
Now the reality bites as the cost of producing 5nm chips at FAB 21 is Five times more expensive as they compare that of Taiwan. @antonius123 bro the mass production date is 2024, as reported in the video all FABS had raise their price due to the shortage, now picture this as China 28nm mass production ensued next year and that of 14nm in 2023 and 7nm at 2024, they will flood the market as @krautmeister had summarized, those FABS in Arizona will become a big white elephant project. If Huawei and SMIC can able to produced a 7nm 3D stacking chipset, then tech wise we are even with the US (5nm Arizona FAB).

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

6.9K views


If the chip price increase due to shortage, then the winner is the supplier (foundry) at the expense on customer; client will always buy their product in spite of high price. This is what we call "supplier market". That means the chip business is very promissing, but the barrier to entry is very high.

The high production cost will be disaster only in the client's market, where no shortage but abundance instead and customer can easily choose the vendor that can offer the cheaper/cheapest price.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Now the reality bites as the cost of producing 5nm chips at FAB 21 is Five times more expensive as they compare that of Taiwan. @antonius123 bro the mass production date is 2024, as reported in the video all FABS had raise their price due to the shortage, now picture this as China 28nm mass production ensued next year and that of 14nm in 2023 and 7nm at 2024, they will flood the market as @krautmeister had summarized, those FABS in Arizona will become a big white elephant project. If Huawei and SMIC can able to produced a 7nm 3D stacking chipset, then tech wise we are even with the US (5nm Arizona FAB).

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

6.9K views


Without Chinese market to offset the costs, this project is one financial black hole.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
If the chip price increase due to shortage, then the winner is the supplier (foundry) at the expense on customer; client will always buy their product in spite of high price. This is what we call "supplier market". That means the chip business is very promissing, but the barrier to entry is very high.

The high production cost will be disaster only in the client's market, where no shortage but abundance instead and customer can easily choose the vendor that can offer the cheaper/cheapest price.
I believe this is a fundamental misunderstanding. first, the shortage is not in leading edge chips, it is in mixed signal and power chips for automotive applications.

second, the increased cost is happening at fab 21 (a leading edge fab) due to technical reasons. They are not going to eat the cost, they're going to pass it onto the customer. the customer is the fabless company. They're going to pass their costs onto the OEMs. The OEMS will then pass the cost onto the end customers. None of them will just eat the cost.

The final customer can then decide - I can simply not buy a new phone so quickly. I will wait. The OEMS then cut their orders. It's no big deal, most OEMs do multiple products at once. The fabless cut their orders. That's no big deal either, their fixed costs are relatively low and usually they have a large portfolio anyways since they only deal in IP. But the leading edge fab is in trouble. Every second it operates it burns money because it can't stop. It needs utilization to approach 100%.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top