Chinese semiconductor industry

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That means China will be always 2 generation behind the leader. It will be OK if China doesnt pursue to become technology leader.

Even the laggard Europe now plan to close the gap with the leader TSMC and Samsung.
Your assuming that at high-NA EUV, the frontier isn't closed
 

krautmeister

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@WTAN @krautmeister @FairAndUnbiased @foofy Sir it had a lot of technical jargon and the author seems confident, need your opinion if his confidence is justify?

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I recently found out this video was referring to a materials breakthrough based on platinum sulfide. I found the following links related to this video.

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They are saying that they created a new graphene like material to eventually replace silicon. When they said graphene like, they are basically saying it is a 2D material, meaning it is atoms thick and allows electrons to flow faster and more directionally through the material, unlike silicon which has a diamond like tetrahedral structure that allows electrons to move in all directions, which makes electron flow relatively inefficient, slower and prone to thermal issues. This is why graphene was always hyped up as a low power, high performance silicon replacement. The problem with graphene is that it isn't a semiconductor material, which means it doesn't have a bandgap. You need the bandgap in order to be able to turn transistors off, otherwise you can't make logic circuits.

This platinum sulfide semiconductor has a "wide and adjustable" bandgap which is probably "adjusted" by how many atoms thick the 2D structure is. They compared their platinum sulfide semiconductor with what TSMC has already researched with bismuth semiconductors and claim they can use it to eventually fab processes down to 1nm without quantum tunneling.

This is all good, but the way the reporters presented this, they make it sound like this is just around the corner when it's still in research. What I find more interesting is the public way this materials breakthrough is presented. If this was so important, why would they publicly report this and present it as a breakthrough for Humanity when this would simply be used by the American semiconductor alliance to stay ahead of China? This reminds me of when the China 2025 goals were publicly announced. It sounded good on the surface but it was actually the final impetus needed for China's enemies to fully zero in and target China as their number #1 target to destroy. That was stupid of China and so is this. Anything secret should stay secret. Only when the cat is already out of the bag should such secrets be allowed to be spoken.
 

FairAndUnbiased

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Graphene isn't going to be replacing silicon but graphene research led to research into other 2D materials like indium selenide which do have the bandgap. There was a recent post by @ansy1968 referring to a recent materials breakthrough by Yunnan University. There wasn't a lot of information in that video, but it sounded like they were able to develop transistors on a new 2D material with bandgap. If so, that means eventual logic circuits could be built with this new material and maybe eventually stacked layer upon layer because of the low power and good thermal performance. This is a really long way off, but it's not sci-fi like graphene. Even graphene can work with transistors by sandwiching graphene layers between something like boron nitride to create the bandgap barrier and then mounting this on silicon oxide to help control transistors. Definitely not practical but if they can do that with graphene, then it means other 2D materials with native bandgap will work given enough time.
What's the reason though? The theory is that you can make everything thinner. But you already waste a ton of vertical headspace as is, which is why 3D packaging architecture like chiplets, X-tacking and through silicon vias are getting popular.

The other reason is electron mobility. Good reason, but then there's GaAs and SiGe.

The killer is lack of inert native oxide and nitride. Without a native oxide it is much harder to deposit an epitaxial insulator and without inert native nitride you can't deposit an inert epitaxial blocking layer. That's why even for ultra high performance lab chips with exotic materials at most they still usually use something like SiGe or SiC.

I understand why people try to get 2D materials for logic, and this is worthy research, but it is not ready for near term by far because the performance requirements are nowhere near where they'd be justified by the vastly high cost and lower yield.

There's lots of other applications for 2D materials such as battery tech, sensors, RF, MEMS, heating elements, etc. Why try to shoehorn it into logic?
 

krautmeister

Junior Member
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What's the reason though? The theory is that you can make everything thinner. But you already waste a ton of vertical headspace as is, which is why 3D packaging architecture like chiplets, X-tacking and through silicon vias are getting popular.

The other reason is electron mobility. Good reason, but then there's GaAs and SiGe.

The killer is lack of inert native oxide and nitride. Without a native oxide it is much harder to deposit an epitaxial insulator and without inert native nitride you can't deposit an inert epitaxial blocking layer. That's why even for ultra high performance lab chips with exotic materials at most they still usually use something like SiGe or SiC.

There's lots of other applications for 2D materials such as battery tech, sensors, RF, MEMS, heating elements, etc. Why try to shoehorn it into logic?
They sandwiched graphene between boron nitride which was the blocking layer. This was in a landmark paper about transistor use with graphene published in Science Magazine. You will find it under the title "Field-effect tunneling transistor based on vertical graphene heterostructures". Not saying this is the way to go, this is all research.

In the case of other 2D material candidates, not saying they are ready or better than existing pathways like chiplets, Xtacking, nanosheets, etc. Those are clearly ready or almost ready. However, beyond 2nm, unless thermal issues can be definitively solved for various layering techniques, we're going to hit a wall in 10 odd years. When that time arrives, silicon will have to be replaced with something else. Imo, it's going to be some variation of a 2D semiconductor, perhaps platinum sulfide as recently discussed.
 

horse

Colonel
Registered Member
The threat of a complete chip blockade is far from negligible. Here is an article just published in Foreign Affairs, a rather important media.

It is a long article, but worth reading for all the crap it says. Here is what it says about semiconductors.

QUOTE

Washington also needs to do more to stymie Beijing’s plans to dominate semiconductor manufacturing. Chinese leaders are well aware that most twenty-first-century technologies—including 5G telecommunications, synthetic biology, and machine learning—are built around advanced semiconductors. Accordingly, those leaders have poured more than $100 billion in subsidies into building Chinese chip foundries, with mixed results.

Most of the world’s cutting-edge chips are produced by the Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company. The CCP has many ideological and strategic reasons to consider invading Taiwan; its quest for control of the market for chips represents an economic incentive to do so. Of course, a war could seriously damage Taiwan’s foundries, which, in any case, would struggle to maintain production without Western chip designs and equipment. And such a shock to chip supplies would affect millions of downstream jobs in China, not just those in other large economies. Even so, Beijing might believe that China could recover from a crisis more quickly than the United States. That is precisely the lesson Beijing drew from the COVID-19 pandemic, which has taken a far greater toll on China’s adversaries than on China itself. To be sure, Beijing would not take the fateful step of attacking Taiwan and risking war with the United States based on semiconductor inventories alone. The point is that Chinese leaders may not view the disruption of semiconductor supply chains as an inhibitor to launching a war.

Regardless of Beijing’s calculus, Washington should seek to eliminate any potential Chinese advantage in semiconductors by subsidizing new chip foundries in the United States—something the 2020 CHIPS Act and the 2021 U.S. Innovation and Competition Act seek to do. The U.S. Commerce Department must also slow Beijing’s efforts to scale up its foundries by applying sharper restrictions on the export of U.S.-made equipment used to manufacture semiconductors—not just for cutting-edge chips but also for those that are a couple of generations older.



UNQUOTE

A complete chip blockade from the China market is not a serious talking point.

They should do it, if they think they can get away with it.
 

daifo

Major
Registered Member
It may sound extreme, but China should just ban the manufacturing of Apple products in China, unless all sanctions on all Chinese technology companies are lifted. This would send Apple into disarray, the US stock market into a shock, while the foxconn factories in India are not even running yet. This would buy some extra time of catching up, while the enemies are scrambling.

That is a quick way to commit economic and technology suicide.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Agreed! But the imports of chips over 7nm are an EXISTENTIAL THREAT to China. That is where the war economy should concentrate. The rest is desirable. It hurts, but does not kill.

I wouldn't say existential.

My guestimate is that China could cover most of its domestic semiconductor consumption with current fab capacity inside China.

So it would be a tough few years until replacement fabs are up and running, but China will get there.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
They sandwiched graphene between boron nitride which was the blocking layer. This was in a landmark paper about transistor use with graphene published in Science Magazine. You will find it under the title "Field-effect tunneling transistor based on vertical graphene heterostructures". Not saying this is the way to go, this is all research.

In the case of other 2D material candidates, not saying they are ready or better than existing pathways like chiplets, Xtacking, nanosheets, etc. Those are clearly ready or almost ready. However, beyond 2nm, unless thermal issues can be definitively solved for various layering techniques, we're going to hit a wall in 10 odd years. When that time arrives, silicon will have to be replaced with something else. Imo, it's going to be some variation of a 2D semiconductor, perhaps platinum sulfide as recently discussed.
Yes, but that requires deposition of a boron nitride layer which means introducing expensive precursors such as borane, which are toxic, flammable and particle forming in presence of water which can destroy pumps and contaminate other wafers as boron is a dopant if anything goes wrong. There might be lattice mismatch or poor adhesion.

Meanwhile for silicon you only need to introduce pure gases which are not as flammable, toxic or particle forming such as water vapor to form the oxide layer. You can form them to arbitrary thickness. And they come as epitaxial films.

I actually think electronic logic is just going to slow down and hit the brick wall until quantum computing. Each new process gets exponentially more expensive for less and less gain which means longer and longer time on market to recoup costs at higher end prices for customers who see little difference in new products.
 
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