Chinese semiconductor industry

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huemens

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Ericsson CEO warns China will be 'formidable' if 5G or 6G splits​

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"If the tech world is fragmented East and West then it is going to mean competition between two ecosystems," Ekholm tells Light Reading in an exclusive interview. "A Chinese ecosystem will be formidable competition for the West. It concerns me that end users – customers and enterprises – will feel it in their mobile experience."
 

Tyler

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China won't do anything until they are read to drop the peg and finish the USD off. That won't happen until 2030 at the earliest.
They can just allow the rmb to appreciate 5% per year for the next decade. This would send US inflation way up and their stock market into disarray. The large amount of money printing will tank the $US.
 
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They can just allow the rmb to appreciate 5% per year for the next decade. This would send US inflation way up and their stock market into disarray. The large amount of money printing will tank the $US.
*Yawn* tell me something you haven't said in the last 10 years
 

AndrewS

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Don't think it matters. The fabs are junk once combat starts anyways, because the power grid need to be targetted and if a fab loses power unexpectedly for even a few hours everything in progress is junk and alot of the equipment goes down.

If they don't destroy it, the only worth of the fabs will be salvaged equipment (maybe some DUV litho tools and wet chem tools). Alot of the gas phase chemistry equipment like ion implanters, etchers and deposition are going to be junk due to losing vacuum and leaking corrosive, toxic chemicals. The engineers are likely to flee or go into hiding.

Given the value of the fab, wouldn't each fab have onsite power for an emergency shutdown over the course of a few hours?

And then enough generators to keep the fab idling?
 
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FairAndUnbiased

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Given the value of the fab, wouldn't each fab have onsite power for an emergency shutdown over the course of a few hours?

And then enough generators to keep the fab idling?

Yes, they have generators. But those run out. Allowing fuel deliveries to the fabs would be unwise as terrorists can hole up in them.

Best to give them no illusions. Strength doesn't come from taking others, it comes from within.
 

Xizor

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“Chinese companies have ties to the government”
This is one of those examples that pop the Psy-propaganda often making runs in US centered defence circles that insists US is in possession of some advanced classified technologies.

I've yet to see anything remotely advanced as they hype. This dependence on Global semiconductor supply chain is telling.
For example - US fighter jet F35 uses a type of Intel processors and Nvidia GPU on board to power its computers. They aren't using some alien technology or even "Quantum" processors.

What I mean is - we are talking about Anti-Gravity propelled Triangle fighter jets out of Area51 limited by Intel 7nm processors ( because they don't have the fabs for a better process).
 

krautmeister

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Yes, but that requires deposition of a boron nitride layer which means introducing expensive precursors such as borane, which are toxic, flammable and particle forming in presence of water which can destroy pumps and contaminate other wafers as boron is a dopant if anything goes wrong. There might be lattice mismatch or poor adhesion.
There's always risks of contamination when doping but it's a doable task. This was already accomplished by the research team I referenced earlier who created vertical tunneling transistors. The research proved that graphene could be used for logic albeit with a lot of jerry rigging. That doesn't mean graphene is a realistic silicon alternative. That's why other 2D materials that are actual semiconductors are researched in parallel and touted as having actual potential like platinum sulfide. I would use the analogy of nuclear fusion research which is pie in the sky research while thorium salt reactors are becoming a proven commodity soon to be commercialized.


I actually think electronic logic is just going to slow down and hit the brick wall until quantum computing. Each new process gets exponentially more expensive for less and less gain which means longer and longer time on market to recoup costs at higher end prices for customers who see little difference in new products.
I have a theory that IF China can commercialize quad patterned 7nm DUV process, that it will collapse margins for every process node below 7nm including the leading edge. Sometime after 2026, the excess semiconductor capacity that will be laying idle combined with what will probably become a largely self sufficient China semiconductor market above >=7nm, along with China's supply chain cost advantages, will totally destroy the global semiconductor business model. The price/performance curve between what will become China's DUVi 7nm chips and all leading edge EUV performance chips, will not warrant the price discrepancy that currently exists between the leading edge processes and processes 3 generations older. Imagine having chips performing at say ~50% of the leading edge, consuming say 200-250% the energy, but costing 5-20 times less. :oops: It won't matter that China isn't at the leading edge when this happens. What will happen is, those at the leading edge will either be selling way less than they planned thus making way less money OR they will be dropping their prices to price discovery, collapsing their margins in the process and making way less money. Yes, there will always be sales of the very best, most power stingy, but most sales aren't in this category when the alternative will be literally 5-20 times less expensive. Either way, they will be earning far less income than what they expected with planning their capital and R&D budgets. I think mergers and bankruptcy are on the horizon for many of these leading edge semiconductor companies.
 

FairAndUnbiased

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There's always risks of contamination when doping but it's a doable task. This was already accomplished by the research team I referenced earlier who created vertical tunneling transistors. The research proved that graphene could be used for logic albeit with a lot of jerry rigging. That doesn't mean graphene is a realistic silicon alternative. That's why other 2D materials that are actual semiconductors are researched in parallel and touted as having actual potential like platinum sulfide. I would use the analogy of nuclear fusion research which is pie in the sky research while thorium salt reactors are becoming a proven commodity soon to be commercialized.



I have a theory that IF China can commercialize quad patterned 7nm DUV process, that it will collapse margins for every process node below 7nm including the leading edge. Sometime after 2026, the excess semiconductor capacity that will be laying idle combined with what will probably become a largely self sufficient China semiconductor market above >=7nm, along with China's supply chain cost advantages, will totally destroy the global semiconductor business model. The price/performance curve between what will become China's DUVi 7nm chips and all leading edge EUV performance chips, will not warrant the price discrepancy that currently exists between the leading edge processes and processes 3 generations older. Imagine having chips performing at say ~50% of the leading edge, consuming say 200-250% the energy, but costing 5-20 times less. :oops: It won't matter that China isn't at the leading edge when this happens. What will happen is, those at the leading edge will either be selling way less than they planned thus making way less money OR they will be dropping their prices to price discovery, collapsing their margins in the process and making way less money. Yes, there will always be sales of the very best, most power stingy, but most sales aren't in this category when the alternative will be literally 5-20 times less expensive. Either way, they will be earning far less income than what they expected with planning their capital and R&D budgets. I think mergers and bankruptcy are on the horizon for many of these leading edge semiconductor companies.

My idea for 2030+ of semiconductor fabrication is that it is still going to be Si based. However, Si based doesn't mean pure Si. Here's a few milestones to watch:

1. leading edge chips will have advanced packaging with through silicon vias and wafer bonding being usual, rather than a unique selling point, just like how multicore started as a selling point then became default.

2. leading edge chips will use advanced gate geometries like gate all around or Si nanowire, and these advanced gate geometries will be perfected.

3. in terms of materials, I see potential in SiGe. It is compatible with standard silicon CMOS techniques, has a native oxide and has intrinsic thermoelectric properties. This
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as SiGe architectures offer the possibility of on-chip cooling using thermoelectric refrigeration.

In terms of nonleading chips, you are 100% correct. if you can get low cost multipattern DUV at 7 nm, that's a win. Low cost per chip means it's OK to just use multiple chips and stack them.

In terms of what China is doing, China is already investing huge money into
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, and silicon germanium is close.

The breakthrough will be mass production of 200 mm SiC or SiGe wafers. Having 200 mm wafers is a gamechanger as that's the minimum size to fit into logic processes.
 
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