Chinese semiconductor industry

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latenlazy

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I don't really feel much diff of my old old desktop i7 950 with 45nm with my "current" (just replaced a few weeks ago) i7-6700K with 14nm

Heck even my current Ryzen 9 5900X 7nm 12C/24T ... is extremely fast, but for browsing just almost the same as my old old i7 950 45nm
Yes, because for everyday stuff you have more compute than is necessary. Most of the extra compute we have these days is being used to make it easier and faster to push code because code no longer needs to be optimized for leanness and efficiency, which is just much harder and less forgiving to write. Nonetheless, a difference in performance is a difference in performance. Maybe you don’t *need* that extra performance but that doesn’t mean the difference isn’t there.
 

WTAN

Junior Member
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The "consensus" (at least when I last checked) is that EUV will be ready by 2025. From recent developments, do you feel that's still on track or has something changed?
Yes.....EUVL should be ready by 2025. There are no changes in plans i can see.
If Huawei wants to produce 7nm Chips say in 2023, it will have to use the DUVL as that is all thats available currently.
Huawei will certainly switch to EUVL for the 5/7nm when it becomes available. Just like what TSMC did.
 

BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
The measure of your compute effiency isn’t measured by your capacitance and resistivity. It’s measured in your electron loss during switching operations. Lower resistivity means for each switching operations you are letting more electrons through per switch, which is *bad* for compute efficiency and heat and power consumption. You want to pass through less electrons per switch, if possible. That’s what drives performance. Transistor efficiency is *all* about trying to do more work with fewer electron.

So long as your processor doesn’t go over 100 degrees is a huge caveat. Even everyday consumer processors when doing heavy loads can actually go beyond that temperature quite easily. Remember, what matters for your transistor efficiency is the *local* temperature, and that is specifically the local temperature in a very small area. Your whole device doesn’t need to be at 100 degrees for your processor to be. When your device is heating to 30 or even 40 degrees C it’s basically heat sinking for the thermal load generated by your processor. If your whole device, representing a much bigger area, can get that hot from absorbing the heat from your processor, that’s telling you a lot about how hot your processor, the generator of the heat, is actually getting.

You can try to finagle around the difference in performance for each node shrink as much as you want but the figures are what they are. When they say a node shrink gives 15-20% more compute or 15-30% less power consumption, those figures are what they are, and if you’re two nodes behind those differences *compound*. 60 microns to 6 nanometers may represent a performance difference of many multiples, and that’s certainly not the level of difference we’re talking about, but a 30-50% difference in performance (compounded across two or three nodes of performance gains) is nothing to sneeze at either.
What I am pointing is temperature difference doesn't decrease computing power. I am also pointing that Huawei can match Qualcomm's SoCs again by using more advanced packaging methods like chiplets and new methods like 3D stacking. I don't get what you are arguing against. China doesn't have EUV right now so it doesn't have any choice.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
What I am pointing is temperature difference doesn't decrease computing power. I am also pointing that Huawei can match Qualcomm's SoCs again by using more advanced packaging methods like chiplets and new methods like 3D stacking. I don't get what you are arguing against. China doesn't have EUV right now so it doesn't have any choice.
If your chip runs hot it *will* decrease compute efficiency and power. This is a very well known phenomena. This means that chasing density alone to drive performance is a bit meaningless. Density is not the most relevant factor for pushing performance here. I’m simply pointing out that 3D packing is not the parity leveler many of you are making it out to be. You may not need the most advanced process nodes to get the performance you need for most applications, but it’s fooling oneself to believe that you can make up the difference for more advanced process nodes with 3D packing.
 

BoraTas

Major
Registered Member
If your chip runs hot it *will* decrease compute efficiency and power. This is a very well known phenomena. This means that chasing density alone to drive performance is a bit meaningless. Density is not the most relevant factor for pushing performance here. I’m simply pointing out that 3D packing is not the parity leveler many of you are making it out to be. You may not need the most advanced process nodes to get the performance you need for most applications, but it’s fooling oneself to believe that you can make up the difference for more advanced process nodes with 3D packing.
Most modern CPUs are capable of running at their max design frequency at all temperatures allowed by the manufacturer. So no heat-caused decrease in performance would happen. I am confident in my claim that 3D packaging may bridge the gap because it may drastically reduce costs by reducing the die size which is the main driver of costs in high production volumes. This may enable the same performance to be achieved at the same die size thus a similar price.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Most modern CPUs are capable of running at their max design frequency at all temperatures allowed by the manufacturer. So no heat-caused decrease in performance would happen. I am confident in my claim that 3D packaging may bridge the gap because it may drastically reduce costs by reducing the die size which is the main driver of costs in high production volumes. This may enable the same performance to be achieved at the same die size thus a similar price.
Your max frequency is predetermined by the thermal load that the chip is designed for. For the same chip design the potential max frequency envelope is much higher for chips with more efficient transistors than less efficient transistors. And even then, all these chips are designed to automatically down clock when they're running past a certain temperature *for the exact reasons I've just laid out*.

3D packing can reduce die size and increase density, but increasing density is meaningless if it hurts your ability to dissipate heat. 3D packing is good for *cost* efficiency. It doesn't help you much on chip *performance*.
 
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horse

Colonel
Registered Member
Yup your right about Ren Zhengfei, he is a fighter and embodied the ideas of Mao.

Ren Zhengfei, Ma Yun, those guys are communist party cadres, card carrying members of the party.

They are as right wing as can be too. That is China today.

Get to work. Get the job done!

If not, you're fired, like that guy used to say on that Apprentice TV show.

:p
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
Ren Zhengfei, Ma Yun, those guys are communist party cadres, card carrying members of the party.

They are as right wing as can be too. That is China today.

Get to work. Get the job done!

If not, you're fired, like that guy used to say on that Apprentice TV show.

:p
@horse bro are you feeling it ;) , I sense that the dam is gonna burst, this tiny bit of good news is eroding the US tight hold on Semis. I'm imagining their reaction , it will be a DEJA VU moment all over again...hehehe. And I feel sorry for TSMC, SAMSUNG , ASML , NIKON and CANON their business are being devastated, they should learned and follow Huawei, under adversity the only way to survive is to fight back.
 
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