Chinese semiconductor industry

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caudaceus

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BlackWindMnt said:
Wasn't it posted here recently that they tried to convince a European company to become a high tech end semi conductor fabricator but the European company said something akin like we will not do it there's no market for it. Given that there are no European brands that need sub 10nm chips any time soon, we here in Europe don't have a Apple, Huawei, Xiaomi, Google, Amazon or a Microsoft.
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Sub 10nm with indigenous EU IP and equipment(I hope).
Seems can be used for Huawei:cool:.
 
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voyager1

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BlackWindMnt said:
Wasn't it posted here recently that they tried to convince a European company to become a high tech end semi conductor fabricator but the European company said something akin like we will not do it there's no market for it. Given that there are no European brands that need sub 10nm chips any time soon, we here in Europe don't have a Apple, Huawei, Xiaomi, Google, Amazon or a Microsoft.
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I dont remember the article you are referring to, but on the no demand thing I dont think it is a difficult problem for the EU to solve.

They could raise tariffs, make JV requirements, require electronic products containing chips sold in EU to require domestic chips, or follow the Chinese "informal barriers" to products containing foreign chips etc..

Obviously these moves are big blow and the rest of the world would take countermeasures but it is not impossible for the EU to create demand if necessary.
 
quantumlight

quantumlight

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antonius123 said:
Besides, the more chip manufacturers the cheaper chips will be, maybe computer vendors will be using the most advanced chip (eg: 2nm
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Only up to a point... 2nm will n
voyager1 said:
I dont remember the article you are referring to, but on the no demand thing I dont think it is a difficult problem for the EU to solve.

They could raise tariffs, make JV requirements, require electronic products containing chips sold in EU to require domestic chips, or follow the Chinese "informal barriers" to products containing foreign chips etc..

Obviously these moves are big blow and the rest of the world would take countermeasures but it is not impossible for the EU to create demand if necessary.
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Look at the havoc semiconductor shortage is causing GM...they had to shutdown several plants..

Compare the price of a chip to a car.... China wants to stay the worlds largest trading partner, wants to climb the tech and value chain ladder. and in the future everything will have microprocessors embedded in them...

Both EU and China can afford to subsidize their chip industries to the moon if they have to, and in Chinas case it cannot afford not to...

When it comes to semiconductors its no longer simple normal economics anymore, once geopolitics and national security get involved the entire calculus changes
 
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BlackWindMnt

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caudaceus said:
Sub 10nm with indigenous EU IP and equipment(I hope).
Seems can be used for Huawei:cool:.
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Why would Chinese fabless semiconductor designer choose a European fab over a domestic fab? Knowing European nations they are always late at finishing their big projects.

voyager1 said:
I dont remember the article you are referring to, but on the no demand thing I dont think it is a difficult problem for the EU to solve.

They could raise tariffs, make JV requirements, require electronic products containing chips sold in EU to require domestic chips, or follow the Chinese "informal barriers" to products containing foreign chips etc..

Obviously these moves are big blow and the rest of the world would take countermeasures but it is not impossible for the EU to create demand if necessary.
Click to expand...
FT Article: EU cash alone won’t secure chip supply for region, says Infineon chief
Not exactly sure how to cleanly quote FT articles here, so i just took the relevant part.
But Ploss is sceptical that cash alone can help the country compete with the US and Asia if it is used to build EU-based foundries whose biggest customers remain foreign tech giants, rather than the European companies suffering as a result of the bottlenecks. In such a scenario, “it will not help to have [production] onshored”, he claimed.
At present, he added, Europe did not have a large enough tech sector to make localised chip production worthwhile. “We had a computer industry in Germany, it is gone,” he said. “We had a consumer [electronics] industry, it is gone — it went partially to the US, but to a large degree to the Japanese.” Unless the continent rebuilt these sectors, “I'm not so sure it would make sense to invest in Europe in order to use the capacity for the Chinese”, Ploss added. The investments required to build foundries in Europe far exceed the industry’s current ambitions. While European semiconductor companies are responsible for just 4 per cent of the sector’s capital expenditure, according to management consultancy Roland Berger, rivals in the Asia-Pacific region make up 63 per cent of the total. TSMC alone is spending €20bn on a new cutting-edge campus, while Infineon plans to spend up to €1.6bn in 2021, partly on bringing a new plant in Villach, Austria, online.
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BoraTas

BoraTas

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antiterror13 said:
really ?, any links?
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"Besides 14nm, SMIC’s more advanced nodes, 12nm and N+1, have also started mass production, as revealed by co-chief executive Liang Mong-Song in December. Liang said the company had finished developing the 7nm process and planned for trial mass-production in April 2021, plus development of 5nm and 3nm production in the future."

According to SMIC's claims the N+1 15% slower than TSMC N7FF but it is 2% more power-efficient. This is probably why they don't call it "7 nm" straightly.
 
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antiterror13

Brigadier
voyager1 said:
This is it. The wideranging Trump sanctions were a wake up call on EU and thats why they are doing this now. They dont fear Chinese chips (lol), they fear the US blackmailing them everytime they want to exercise their infamous "strategic autonomy"
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The US my block some technologies to the EU ... it is not impossible, even more if Trump like president come out in 2025
 
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antiterror13

Brigadier
antonius123 said:
Major customers will be the smartphone vendors like Samsung, Iphone, Xiaomi, Vivo, OPPO etc.
Besides, the more chip manufacturers the cheaper chips will be, maybe computer vendors will be using the most advanced chip (eg: 2nm) also just like smartphone.
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Eventually some will go bankrupt ... as the huge investment cost of 2nm or even 5nm is just huuuge and with stiff competition the price is too low and the return would be too low or negative .. especially once the interest rate back to "normal"
 
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antiterror13

Brigadier
antonius123 said:
Not necessarily EU's customers.

Chinese/Korean/Japanese customers could also place order to them.
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They may hope so, but extremely unlikely as Chinese and Korean and somewhat Japanese will have that advanced node chip manufacturing facilities, just a matter of time

Also they are already way more advanced than EU, even Chinese is .. and can produce more cheaply
 
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antiterror13

Brigadier
voyager1 said:
This is it. The wideranging Trump sanctions were a wake up call on EU and thats why they are doing this now. They dont fear Chinese chips (lol), they fear the US blackmailing them everytime they want to exercise their infamous "strategic autonomy"
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yeahh, Trump is the source of the declining trust of the US ... and also accelerating the decline of the US tech

The US is no longer seen as a trusted technology provider
 
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