Chinese semiconductor industry

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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Here is the ultimate proof that nationalism is bad.

Go read some Physics books and then come back to say that "even a kid would have thought about it" and that China could produce "thousands Einsteins"..

Wont even bother to respond to this because I am feeling my brains cells dying just thinking about your response

Well he is saying that China could have thousands of Einstein grade talents ... not thousands of fully cultivated Einstein grade talents. This is statistically quite likely and thousands is probably an understatement. India would also have thousands upon thousands of Einstein grade talents. An example of a cultivated one would be Ramanujan. There are plenty of that level elsewhere and they are just less known.

You missed his point and focused on attacking a strawman.

Has China produced cultivated Einsteins? Just a few through its modern history and many many others a little lower in calibre but still remarkable. They're just not reported in the dailymail or shown in English on Youtube or featured on Instagram.

Agreed that Newton was more important. Einstein himself said that his work was built upon other theories. What i am actually praising was his imagination and theorytical background.

BTW I dont know how they would manage to synchronize the GPS clocks without his reasearch.

Anyway, this is offtopic, it just that poster burnt my brain with his "China could produce thousands Einsteins" nonsense

Sure no one is really slamming Einstein. We're trying to point out facts and provide context to the truths surrounding the intentionally overhyped cult of personality for Einstein which you are proof of.

For synchronising GPS the practical work could be done just on observation. It's also ignoring the fact that if not him someone else certainly would have. Just like if not the nameless Chinese person/team that discovered gunpowder, someone else would have... same thing for the next explosive type - TNT... then the latest explosive type (which was Chinese discovered relatively recently).

Relativity as a concept was already publicly published and known since Galileo. Einstein's three most famous works are monumental of course. Again no one is challenging that. It's just unnecessarily deifying one exceptional generational genius over so many more, some of undeniably greater calibre.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Oh and holy shit this has gone so off topic. It all started when an idiot posted something about caucasians being smarter and China not being able to produce an Einstein (btw are Ashkenazi Jews ethnically caucasian or do the "purist" racists not like that idea?) like that helps develop EUV. BTW so much of lithography technology including the theory and every single part of every piece of hardware that make those varieties possible, was either entirely developed and done by ASIANS or caught up and mastered eventually. Most of that stuff was innovated by the Japanese. They even produced their own lens.

Quite ironic. It's more accurate to ask why caucasians are seemingly less capable of developing semiconductor technologies compared to Asians. They had to get Jensen Huang to help develop a quarter of that entire industry lol.

Even now, Netherlands has one niche field they are leading in. While Japan, Korea, and Taiwan make up the majority of this entire industry from the maths on paper to finished products.

I suppose sand is yellow in colour o_O
 

quantumlight

Junior Member
Registered Member
You are right, apologies. I gave it another close reading and it seems i misread your post
I have nothing against Einstein, I just didnt see how its all that relevant to China's EUV problem...

Anyway, if there is one major weakness its Chinese people are too naive about the intentions of the West... US will play the semiconductor card to the end, many on this forum still dont believe it will happen. China will get cut off all chips soon

Europe developed first because they held the monopoly on "organized violence" and applied scientific principle in terms of application of technology towards machines of war... then they leveraged this headstart to ruthlessly subjegate the rest of the world...

US hegemony and high living standards is via colonization of world aka petrodollar hegemony...

In the long run tech lead translates into economic lead, military lead...

America was always gonna pull the semiconductor card... if China gets ahead in tech its game over for the USA.

So of course US is leveraging its incumbent power to compel its vassals to isolate China on the tech realm to prevent China from gaining semiconductor relevance...

How this plays out will shape the rest of the 21st century. If US pushes hard enough China will be left no choice than to retake Tiawan... sad to say but scorthed earth works both ways and is double edged sword, if push comes to shove China can strategic strike TSMC and bring all high tech EUV to standstill to buy it time to catch up....
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
I have nothing against Einstein, I just didnt see how its all that relevant to China's EUV problem...

Anyway, if there is one major weakness its Chinese people are too naive about the intentions of the West... US will play the semiconductor card to the end, many on this forum still dont believe it will happen. China will get cut off all chips soon

Europe developed first because they held the monopoly on "organized violence" and applied scientific principle in terms of application of technology towards machines of war... then they leveraged this headstart to ruthlessly subjegate the rest of the world...

US hegemony and high living standards is via colonization of world aka petrodollar hegemony...

In the long run tech lead translates into economic lead, military lead...

America was always gonna pull the semiconductor card... if China gets ahead in tech its game over for the USA.

So of course US is leveraging its incumbent power to compel its vassals to isolate China on the tech realm to prevent China from gaining semiconductor relevance...

How this plays out will shape the rest of the 21st century. If US pushes hard enough China will be left no choice than to retake Tiawan... sad to say but scorthed earth works both ways and is double edged sword, if push comes to shove China can strategic strike TSMC and bring all high tech EUV to standstill to buy it time to catch up....

Even then, much of that tech lead was a direct result of the contribution of German scientists, Soviet defectors, Jewish migrants, and Asian migrants (much later but clearly relevant). It's disproportionately contributed to by these groups almost as skewed as academic and university demographics.

China would only entertain the idea of kinetic war when it has been thoroughly beaten in the trade and tech war, where its economy has gone bust and it has nothing more to lose because development is getting limited to nothing in whatever way. Both sides understand that war is likely once this struggle is over and it's likely to be initiated by the one who loses out. It's over for the US when China is clearly surpassed by accurate metrics and on the trajectory towards even greater while the US trajectory is in further anticipated decline. That's when the US will have nothing much to lose (in this perspective) and consider kinetic war. If China loses out and is in that position, there is no reason why it wouldn't use the last tool it has to at least reunite Taiwan by force.

If reunification escalates, China has much less to lose. If it doesn't and China is relegated to a second tier power in relative decline against the superior pressures of a greater power, then at least it is reunified and whole.
 

antonius123

Junior Member
Registered Member

Europe Aiming for Manufacturing Capacities for 2nm​


Fab-Investments-2020-2024-EE-Times-Europe.jpg


The European Commission recently presented its 'Digital Compass', which stated the intent to have manufacturing capacities below 5nm nodes and aiming at 2nm.

Earlier this month, the European Commission presented its
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, which stated the intent to have manufacturing capacities below 5nm nodes and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, and the production of 20% by value of global semiconductor production in Europe.


This is clearly driven by concerns about overdependence on chip production in Asia and the potential for being caught up in any future US-Asia political crossfire, which could lead to future chip shortages. But building a $30 billion 5nm or 2nm fab is not really going to solve the issue, as some industry commentators have noted.


One of these is industry analyst Yole Développement, who said, “In reality, a $30 billion fab plant is a perilous way to secure European technological sovereignty.” In its
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
of the semiconductor industry, Yole said constructing such a state-of-the-art facility, without support from TSMC or Samsung, will take at least 10 to 15 years and demand tens of billions of dollars of investment. In addition, it may not even end in success. Citing Intel’s challenges, Yole said, “Intel has encountered difficulties on delivering its own advanced 7nm manufacturing process – if the US computing giant can’t easily succeed at this process node, should Europe pursue an even riskier jump to 5 nm?”
1618068917926.png
Evolution of semiconductor process technologies and key players (Source: Yole Développement)

Yole’s view is that the only way for the EU to establish a 5nm fab in Europe would be to follow a similar path to the US, and team up with TSMC or Samsung. The joint effort would require fewer funds from Europe – around $10 billion – and dramatically cut development times from 10 to 15 years to around 3 to 4 years.

But this won’t necessarily solve the sovereignty issue. With or without TSMC or Samsung, Yole questions how much demand there will be in Europe for 5 nm, in three or four years’ time. “All the volumes of wafers to be produced for the continent’s telecommunication, automotive and other industries simply won’t fill such a fab, killing the rationale of this huge investment.”

So, what is the solution?

Well, the thinking is that there will be an increase in manufacturing outsourcing to TSMC and Samsung anyway, simply because it’s just going to take too long to build a fab, install and commission equipment. Yole said, “The best way to technological sovereignty is to invest wisely and create a robust manufacturing ecosystem that will deliver semiconductors to European companies in the long run.”

The analyst firm notes Europe is already home to cutting-edge chip manufacturers and equipment suppliers, each with annual sales from $4 to $16 billion. These include STMicroelectronics, Infineon Technologies, NXP Semiconductors and Ams as well as GlobalFoundries with its Germany fab, Intel and ASML. Meanwhile, several smaller but strong industry players co-exist in Europe, including semiconductor foundries, Tower Semiconductor and X-Fab, each generating between $500 million and $1 billion in sales every year.

After this, there are at least 200 companies, including the IDMs (integrated device manufacturers), subsidiaries of system makers and semiconductor equipment manufacturers, are sprinkled across Europe. The likes of Elmos, Murata Europe, Besi, EVG, Soitec and Siltronic each earn less than $500 million annually but sustain Europe’s manufacturing and technology independence.

Yole added, “Given this rich and established tapestry of industrial semiconductor players, the European Union and national states need a solid strategy to strengthen these suppliers. A first, important step, is to build the intermediary nodes, 14nm or 7nm foundries, in Europe that will support the continent’s current automotive, telecommunication, IoT and industrial applications. These facilities could be EU-funded but also co-developed with ST, Infineon, NXP, Ams and ASML.”

In addition, the EU should invest in activities such as heterogenous integration, advanced packaging and chip partitioning from 14 nm to 7 nm. This would avoid the urgent need for 5 nm and 2 nm chip production while enriching Europe’s technology know-how. A further step could be to leverage Europe’s strong R&D effort in emerging computing and photonics where a large number of companies and startups have a role to play.

This strategy would strengthen Europe’s semiconductor industry and provide a path toward 5nm and below in the longer term. It would also address the issue of more manufacturers being bought by US- and Asia-based companies, which is a growing trend. For example, in 2014, LFoundry shut down its fab in Rousset, France, in 2016 Italian fab, Avezzano, was sold to China’s SMIC and then in late 2020,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Earlier this year,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, and Taiwan’s Globalwafers is in talks to buy Europe’s key wafer substrate provider, Siltronic, Germany.

Yole points out the fallacy of trying to build a 2nm or 5nm fab, stating, “The prospect of financing a 5 nm foundry in Europe while the continent’s finest semiconductor businesses are being subsumed by US- and Asia-based behemoths is akin to building a cathedral in the desert.” It believes that investing in home-grown businesses and infrastructure that will help Europe’s technology ecosystem to flourish is the only way forward, “otherwise the continent could one day become an industrial desert with an empty 5nm cathedral at the center.”

This kind of sentiment is echoed by others. In a recent interview with the Netherlands-based
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, Imec chief strategy officer, Jo De Boeck, said, “Nonetheless, it’s going to take years and a lot of effort before Europe is ready to even consider building a fab. You can’t simply skip multiple nodes; we need to take steps towards it. At Imec, we believe Europe should continue to strengthen our strong base in R&D, manufacturing equipment and materials. When the basic technology is ready, we should bring companies together and start pilot production lines for promising applications that will be relevant for our industries and society. Once production-readiness is in reach, perhaps building a leading-edge fab makes sense. Another option is to consider bringing in a leading-edge player to accelerate this process.”

Indeed, Europe needs to take a more pragmatic, step-by-step approach. Having the big vision is great, but it will be a long-term iterative process rather than something that can be conjured up quickly by throwing money at constructing a leading edge fab. Europe needs to connect the dots between its excellent research and knowledge base with the established industry players already here, and then build upon the strong foundation it already has.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

voyager1

Captain
Registered Member

Europe Aiming for Manufacturing Capacities for 2nm​


Fab-Investments-2020-2024-EE-Times-Europe.jpg


The European Commission recently presented its 'Digital Compass', which stated the intent to have manufacturing capacities below 5nm nodes and aiming at 2nm.

Earlier this month, the European Commission presented its
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, which stated the intent to have manufacturing capacities below 5nm nodes and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, and the production of 20% by value of global semiconductor production in Europe.


This is clearly driven by concerns about overdependence on chip production in Asia and the potential for being caught up in any future US-Asia political crossfire, which could lead to future chip shortages. But building a $30 billion 5nm or 2nm fab is not really going to solve the issue, as some industry commentators have noted.


One of these is industry analyst Yole Développement, who said, “In reality, a $30 billion fab plant is a perilous way to secure European technological sovereignty.” In its
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
of the semiconductor industry, Yole said constructing such a state-of-the-art facility, without support from TSMC or Samsung, will take at least 10 to 15 years and demand tens of billions of dollars of investment. In addition, it may not even end in success. Citing Intel’s challenges, Yole said, “Intel has encountered difficulties on delivering its own advanced 7nm manufacturing process – if the US computing giant can’t easily succeed at this process node, should Europe pursue an even riskier jump to 5 nm?”
View attachment 70793
Evolution of semiconductor process technologies and key players (Source: Yole Développement)

Yole’s view is that the only way for the EU to establish a 5nm fab in Europe would be to follow a similar path to the US, and team up with TSMC or Samsung. The joint effort would require fewer funds from Europe – around $10 billion – and dramatically cut development times from 10 to 15 years to around 3 to 4 years.

But this won’t necessarily solve the sovereignty issue. With or without TSMC or Samsung, Yole questions how much demand there will be in Europe for 5 nm, in three or four years’ time. “All the volumes of wafers to be produced for the continent’s telecommunication, automotive and other industries simply won’t fill such a fab, killing the rationale of this huge investment.”

So, what is the solution?

Well, the thinking is that there will be an increase in manufacturing outsourcing to TSMC and Samsung anyway, simply because it’s just going to take too long to build a fab, install and commission equipment. Yole said, “The best way to technological sovereignty is to invest wisely and create a robust manufacturing ecosystem that will deliver semiconductors to European companies in the long run.”

The analyst firm notes Europe is already home to cutting-edge chip manufacturers and equipment suppliers, each with annual sales from $4 to $16 billion. These include STMicroelectronics, Infineon Technologies, NXP Semiconductors and Ams as well as GlobalFoundries with its Germany fab, Intel and ASML. Meanwhile, several smaller but strong industry players co-exist in Europe, including semiconductor foundries, Tower Semiconductor and X-Fab, each generating between $500 million and $1 billion in sales every year.

After this, there are at least 200 companies, including the IDMs (integrated device manufacturers), subsidiaries of system makers and semiconductor equipment manufacturers, are sprinkled across Europe. The likes of Elmos, Murata Europe, Besi, EVG, Soitec and Siltronic each earn less than $500 million annually but sustain Europe’s manufacturing and technology independence.

Yole added, “Given this rich and established tapestry of industrial semiconductor players, the European Union and national states need a solid strategy to strengthen these suppliers. A first, important step, is to build the intermediary nodes, 14nm or 7nm foundries, in Europe that will support the continent’s current automotive, telecommunication, IoT and industrial applications. These facilities could be EU-funded but also co-developed with ST, Infineon, NXP, Ams and ASML.”

In addition, the EU should invest in activities such as heterogenous integration, advanced packaging and chip partitioning from 14 nm to 7 nm. This would avoid the urgent need for 5 nm and 2 nm chip production while enriching Europe’s technology know-how. A further step could be to leverage Europe’s strong R&D effort in emerging computing and photonics where a large number of companies and startups have a role to play.

This strategy would strengthen Europe’s semiconductor industry and provide a path toward 5nm and below in the longer term. It would also address the issue of more manufacturers being bought by US- and Asia-based companies, which is a growing trend. For example, in 2014, LFoundry shut down its fab in Rousset, France, in 2016 Italian fab, Avezzano, was sold to China’s SMIC and then in late 2020,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Earlier this year,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, and Taiwan’s Globalwafers is in talks to buy Europe’s key wafer substrate provider, Siltronic, Germany.

Yole points out the fallacy of trying to build a 2nm or 5nm fab, stating, “The prospect of financing a 5 nm foundry in Europe while the continent’s finest semiconductor businesses are being subsumed by US- and Asia-based behemoths is akin to building a cathedral in the desert.” It believes that investing in home-grown businesses and infrastructure that will help Europe’s technology ecosystem to flourish is the only way forward, “otherwise the continent could one day become an industrial desert with an empty 5nm cathedral at the center.”

This kind of sentiment is echoed by others. In a recent interview with the Netherlands-based
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, Imec chief strategy officer, Jo De Boeck, said, “Nonetheless, it’s going to take years and a lot of effort before Europe is ready to even consider building a fab. You can’t simply skip multiple nodes; we need to take steps towards it. At Imec, we believe Europe should continue to strengthen our strong base in R&D, manufacturing equipment and materials. When the basic technology is ready, we should bring companies together and start pilot production lines for promising applications that will be relevant for our industries and society. Once production-readiness is in reach, perhaps building a leading-edge fab makes sense. Another option is to consider bringing in a leading-edge player to accelerate this process.”

Indeed, Europe needs to take a more pragmatic, step-by-step approach. Having the big vision is great, but it will be a long-term iterative process rather than something that can be conjured up quickly by throwing money at constructing a leading edge fab. Europe needs to connect the dots between its excellent research and knowledge base with the established industry players already here, and then build upon the strong foundation it already has.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Good move by the EU, but I agree that the 5nm goal is overambitious and I dont know if they will have enough sellers to sell their advanced chips (could be solved by tariffs, require some manufacturing to be located in EU etc)
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member

Europe Aiming for Manufacturing Capacities for 2nm​


Fab-Investments-2020-2024-EE-Times-Europe.jpg


The European Commission recently presented its 'Digital Compass', which stated the intent to have manufacturing capacities below 5nm nodes and aiming at 2nm.

Earlier this month, the European Commission presented its
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, which stated the intent to have manufacturing capacities below 5nm nodes and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, and the production of 20% by value of global semiconductor production in Europe.


This is clearly driven by concerns about overdependence on chip production in Asia and the potential for being caught up in any future US-Asia political crossfire, which could lead to future chip shortages. But building a $30 billion 5nm or 2nm fab is not really going to solve the issue, as some industry commentators have noted.


One of these is industry analyst Yole Développement, who said, “In reality, a $30 billion fab plant is a perilous way to secure European technological sovereignty.” In its
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
of the semiconductor industry, Yole said constructing such a state-of-the-art facility, without support from TSMC or Samsung, will take at least 10 to 15 years and demand tens of billions of dollars of investment. In addition, it may not even end in success. Citing Intel’s challenges, Yole said, “Intel has encountered difficulties on delivering its own advanced 7nm manufacturing process – if the US computing giant can’t easily succeed at this process node, should Europe pursue an even riskier jump to 5 nm?”
View attachment 70793
Evolution of semiconductor process technologies and key players (Source: Yole Développement)

Yole’s view is that the only way for the EU to establish a 5nm fab in Europe would be to follow a similar path to the US, and team up with TSMC or Samsung. The joint effort would require fewer funds from Europe – around $10 billion – and dramatically cut development times from 10 to 15 years to around 3 to 4 years.

But this won’t necessarily solve the sovereignty issue. With or without TSMC or Samsung, Yole questions how much demand there will be in Europe for 5 nm, in three or four years’ time. “All the volumes of wafers to be produced for the continent’s telecommunication, automotive and other industries simply won’t fill such a fab, killing the rationale of this huge investment.”

So, what is the solution?

Well, the thinking is that there will be an increase in manufacturing outsourcing to TSMC and Samsung anyway, simply because it’s just going to take too long to build a fab, install and commission equipment. Yole said, “The best way to technological sovereignty is to invest wisely and create a robust manufacturing ecosystem that will deliver semiconductors to European companies in the long run.”

The analyst firm notes Europe is already home to cutting-edge chip manufacturers and equipment suppliers, each with annual sales from $4 to $16 billion. These include STMicroelectronics, Infineon Technologies, NXP Semiconductors and Ams as well as GlobalFoundries with its Germany fab, Intel and ASML. Meanwhile, several smaller but strong industry players co-exist in Europe, including semiconductor foundries, Tower Semiconductor and X-Fab, each generating between $500 million and $1 billion in sales every year.

After this, there are at least 200 companies, including the IDMs (integrated device manufacturers), subsidiaries of system makers and semiconductor equipment manufacturers, are sprinkled across Europe. The likes of Elmos, Murata Europe, Besi, EVG, Soitec and Siltronic each earn less than $500 million annually but sustain Europe’s manufacturing and technology independence.

Yole added, “Given this rich and established tapestry of industrial semiconductor players, the European Union and national states need a solid strategy to strengthen these suppliers. A first, important step, is to build the intermediary nodes, 14nm or 7nm foundries, in Europe that will support the continent’s current automotive, telecommunication, IoT and industrial applications. These facilities could be EU-funded but also co-developed with ST, Infineon, NXP, Ams and ASML.”

In addition, the EU should invest in activities such as heterogenous integration, advanced packaging and chip partitioning from 14 nm to 7 nm. This would avoid the urgent need for 5 nm and 2 nm chip production while enriching Europe’s technology know-how. A further step could be to leverage Europe’s strong R&D effort in emerging computing and photonics where a large number of companies and startups have a role to play.

This strategy would strengthen Europe’s semiconductor industry and provide a path toward 5nm and below in the longer term. It would also address the issue of more manufacturers being bought by US- and Asia-based companies, which is a growing trend. For example, in 2014, LFoundry shut down its fab in Rousset, France, in 2016 Italian fab, Avezzano, was sold to China’s SMIC and then in late 2020,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Earlier this year,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, and Taiwan’s Globalwafers is in talks to buy Europe’s key wafer substrate provider, Siltronic, Germany.

Yole points out the fallacy of trying to build a 2nm or 5nm fab, stating, “The prospect of financing a 5 nm foundry in Europe while the continent’s finest semiconductor businesses are being subsumed by US- and Asia-based behemoths is akin to building a cathedral in the desert.” It believes that investing in home-grown businesses and infrastructure that will help Europe’s technology ecosystem to flourish is the only way forward, “otherwise the continent could one day become an industrial desert with an empty 5nm cathedral at the center.”

This kind of sentiment is echoed by others. In a recent interview with the Netherlands-based
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, Imec chief strategy officer, Jo De Boeck, said, “Nonetheless, it’s going to take years and a lot of effort before Europe is ready to even consider building a fab. You can’t simply skip multiple nodes; we need to take steps towards it. At Imec, we believe Europe should continue to strengthen our strong base in R&D, manufacturing equipment and materials. When the basic technology is ready, we should bring companies together and start pilot production lines for promising applications that will be relevant for our industries and society. Once production-readiness is in reach, perhaps building a leading-edge fab makes sense. Another option is to consider bringing in a leading-edge player to accelerate this process.”

Indeed, Europe needs to take a more pragmatic, step-by-step approach. Having the big vision is great, but it will be a long-term iterative process rather than something that can be conjured up quickly by throwing money at constructing a leading edge fab. Europe needs to connect the dots between its excellent research and knowledge base with the established industry players already here, and then build upon the strong foundation it already has.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
@antonius123 It will be a race between, TSMC, Samsung and now Europe, let see who will come on top, but for me I see a problem, if all three had succeeded who will be their customer? Is it economically viable if the sanction on Chinese company is still in place? And if Europe is going to develop a 2nm, will that be a conflict of interest since TSMC and Samsung is ASML major customer?
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
The Asian ones are far closer to 5nm and Europe is PLANNING a roadmap to it. They're well ahead of China here that's for sure but is it a good move by EU? They don't need to worry about any US-China political cross fire. They have access to US and US controlled Asian supplies. Samsung and TSMC don't need to help and they shouldn't be forced to but European access to chips is never in doubt unless they have plans like China to be independent of US policy. On that I absolutely encourage them to undertake the journey. They're well ahead of China on this and still have total access to the entire ecosystem from Tokyo to Taipei and California.

It'll be so funny and awesome if European desire for semiconductor self sufficiency is indicative of their diminishing trust of US and desire to simply do what they can do alone. The same but less extreme reasons as China. If this is truly the case, there is some chance China could even buy from Europeans if they ever force a longer leash from the US. Good to call it "worrying about US-Asian political cross fire" lol.
 

voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
It'll be so funny and awesome if European desire for semiconductor self sufficiency is indicative of their diminishing trust of US and desire to simply do what they can do alone. The same but less extreme reasons as China.
This is it. The wideranging Trump sanctions were a wake up call on EU and thats why they are doing this now. They dont fear Chinese chips (lol), they fear the US blackmailing them everytime they want to exercise their infamous "strategic autonomy"
 
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