Chinese semiconductor industry

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wxw456

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Is Loongson the one who AMD had joint venture cooperation with? and also perfect timing they can be FAB in the newly built SMIC SN1 12nm FAB in Shanghai.

From CnTechPost

Chinese chipmaker Loongson's new 12nm chips coming soon​

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March 11, 2021
Chinese chipmaker Loongson recently said that Loongson 3A5000 and 3C5000 made with 12nm process will be launched soon.
This is according to Union Tech, the developer of Unity Operating System (UOS), which said in a
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that Loongson's vice president Zhang Ge made the remarks during a recent seminar.
Ni Guangnan, an academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering, said he hopes the latest Loongson 3A5000/3C5000 products will be available soon.
He also said he looked forward to Loongson's next step in joining the open-source instruction consortium system and making a more important contribution to China's efforts to build its own open-source industry system ecosystem.
Loongson Technology founder Hu Weiwu said in April 2020 that the Loongson 3A5000, a 4-core 2.5GHz chip with a 12nm process, would tape out in the first half of 2020.

Loongson 3A5000 not only increases the main frequency and the number of cores but also the memory controller latency bandwidth optimization and doubles the LLC.
The Loongson 3C5000 with 12nm process has 16 cores to support 4-16 way servers and would tape out in the second half of 2020.
Hu said at the time that the new Loongson's general-purpose processing performance was comparable to AMD's.
I don't recall Loongson having any major joint venture cooperations with foreign companies. Loongson has a fairly long history compared to other chip designers in China. The first Loongson chip started out as a project by the Chinese Academy of Science (CAS) in 2001 (the chips were also referred to as Godson back then). It wasn't until 2009-2010 that the first Loongson chips started going commercial. For comparison Zhaoxin (a joint venture with VIA technologies) was created in 2013.

The major difference between Loongson and other chip designers in China is the chip architecture. Loongson produces chips using the MIPS architecture. Zhaoxin produces chips using the x86 architecture. I am not going to go into the technical benefits and disadvantages between the two different architectures, but the IP licensing differences. A lot of the x86 licences and patents are controlled by Intel, AMD and VIA. This is why Zhaoxin having a joint venture with VIA is able to easily navigate through possible IP and patent issues. Loongson in contrast has its own MIPS license (licensing process took place from 2007-2011) and developed and patented its own micro-architecture to implement MIPS compatible CPUs.

MIPS Computer Systems Inc. was created/developed in Stanford in 1981. In 1992 Silicon Graphics Inc. acquired MIPS Computer Systems Inc. and renamed it to MIPS Technologies Inc. MIPS Technologies Inc was acquired by various American companies until 2018 when it was acquired by Wave Computing. Wave Computing entered into a MIPS license agreement with Prestige Century Investments (Hong Kong based investment firm in Samoa) in 2018. Prestige Century Investments transferred its MIPS-related license to CIP United in China during 2019. In 2020 Wave Computing filed for bankruptcy in the US. Essentially meaning CIP United controls all the licensing for new and existing MIPS processors in China.

So the upside for China is that it controls the licensing for the MIPS architecture. But why does Zhaoxin still want to do a joint venture with VIA to produce x86 chips? AMD and Intel have a several decades head start on designing and producing chips based on the x86 architecture. So that means a huge chunk of OS and software are developed specifically for the x86 architecture. A computer chip is useless without an OS and software! The last Western MIPS CPU was a 28nm process Warrior-M CPU in 2015. Who here has even heard or bought a Warrior-M CPU??? It's not an exaggerration to say that Loongson likely has the most advanced MIPS CPU in 2021. Loongson not only has to figure out how to design and get their MIPS chips fabricated, but it also need to encourage the development of an OS and software for its chips. This is why Loongson chips added hardware based x86 emulation to execute x86 code (performance will never be as good as just running the x86 code on an x86 processor to begin with though). Ideally Loongson would like everyone to run OS and software developed for the MIPS architecture, but reality is that the majority of consumers are using software designed to run on an x86 or ARM architecture.
 

voyager1

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@WTAN or anyone else on here: any truth to this? TDM seems to know a lot of his stuff
Rubbish (regarding the tweets)

Imagine doing all this hard work and then providing this to ASML.

If the Chinese official have a working brain then i am sure they can see the value of creating a monopoly for sanction-proof semiconductors equipment and eventually by 2025-30 creating a monopoly of sanction-proof complete semiconductors supply ecosystem.

If they did this then the EU would be a global competitor on the sanction-proof market for semiconductors and then actively competing and suppressing the still immature domestic companies of.China.

I expect after the domestic IC tech and production is complete (by 2028-2030?) China would step up on the world stage and start offering carrots and sticks on other countries buying its semiconductors and joining on China's tech system.

Pros for China's semiconductors:
Offer sanction proof chips and this is extremely important and now everyone is hypersensitive to this issue thanks to Trump and are actively trying to insulate themselves(genius decision there...)

Increases the soft power of China by actively diminishing US and EU threats on semiconductors.

Increases the leverage of China on the world stage, it can now offer semiconductor equipment, make technology transfers, build fabs on other countries to draw other countries in its sphere.

And.many other pros which i wont list as it would take a long time. So unless EU offers something HUGE, China should not lift its finger. Creating a monopoly for sanction proof semiconductors is such a breakthrough on geoeconomics that China would drastically increase its influence on the world stage
 

Phead128

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Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs

@WTAN or anyone else on here: any truth to this? TDM seems to know a lot of his stuff

So using that logic, so China should develop single crystalline jet engine blade technology, then supply it to Rolls Royce, so Rolls Royces can supply jet engines to China? US can't sanction that IP! /sarcasm.

At that point after developing the EUVL light source, why not just build an EUVL yourself? The optics and physics is easier than light source tech.
 

Nutrient

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[Good info about Loongson and the history of MIPS]

(Don't forget the role of Imagination Technologies in the MIPS saga.)

MIPS Technologies is finally out of bankruptcy. Oddly, they have apparently ditched the MIPS architecture and are going to RISC-V!

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"What a long, strange trip it’s been. MIPS Technologies no longer designs MIPS processors. Instead, it’s joined the RISC-V camp, abandoning its eponymous architecture for one that has strong historical and technical ties. The move apparently heralds the end of the road for MIPS as a CPU family, and a further (slight) diminution in the variety of processors available. It’s the final arc of an architecture."

Does anyone know why MIPS is dropping MIPS?
 

voyager1

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(Don't forget the role of Imagination Technologies in the MIPS saga.)

MIPS Technologies is finally out of bankruptcy. Oddly, they have apparently ditched the MIPS architecture and are going to RISC-V!

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"What a long, strange trip it’s been. MIPS Technologies no longer designs MIPS processors. Instead, it’s joined the RISC-V camp, abandoning its eponymous architecture for one that has strong historical and technical ties. The move apparently heralds the end of the road for MIPS as a CPU family, and a further (slight) diminution in the variety of processors available. It’s the final arc of an architecture."

Does anyone know why MIPS is dropping MIPS?
I would say because it seems there is a general consensus that RISC-V is the next great thing which will function as the base of the whole chinese tech space (from china' perspective). Everyone is abandoning x86, ARM was supposed to be taking its place but things are uncertain now due to NVIDIA buying it so you know what the US is going to do then to China.....

So everyone(in China) have given up with all this and now jumped to the real open source architecture RISC-V bandwagon.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
lol ..these people never learned
If your goal is to never be betrayed then trusting someone who just hurt you is foolish. If your goal is to get something from the other side to meet your objectives there’s nothing wrong with negotiating deals. Even if they fall apart later you will get what you need in the present. China may have gotten betrayed by the US during Trump’s trade war but China also benefited a whole lot from economic coupling with the US before then, much more than it could have on its own and much more than it lost from the punctuation of economy warfare. There’s nothing wrong with China striking deals and building relationships again with US actors so long as it can actually secure something it needs. “Trust” need not to be foolproof and eternal for it to yield value.
 

gelgoog

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For a time MIPS was a great choice if you wanted a high performance CPU core you could incorporate in your own design. For example the Nintendo 64 and the Sony PlayStation 1, 2, PSP used 32-bit MIPS cores. MIPS had a 64-bit processor years before ARM or Intel did. For those who program in assembly language MIPS assembly is really easy to learn and read. Probably the easiest.

But the architecture has grown obsolete since with much less investment in core designs by the MIPS license owner than what ARM has done. It is an uphill battle to support this architecture with quite limited software support for it. Although there were some quite advanced server MIPS processors out there, like those by Cavium (used in network routers) who designed their own CPU core, even Cavium has moved over to ARM with the ThunderX like a decade ago. The most supported architectures in terms of software out there are X86 and ARM with others being negligible in comparison.

Is Loongson the one who AMD had joint venture cooperation with? and also perfect timing they can be FAB in the newly built SMIC SN1 12nm FAB in Shanghai.
...

No. That would be Hygon aka Chengdu Haiguang Integrated Circuit Design Co., Ltd.
But Hygon only had a license for the original AMD Zen core, not the subsequent core AMD designs.
Hygon basically got obfuscated code for the AMD Zen core into which they hooked to add Chinese cryptography acceleration hardware instructions which are required by Chinese government institutions. Then they got sanctioned by the US government a couple years ago.

Loongson design their own MIPS cores and have their own IP. They have been doing that for years.
 
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