Chinese semiconductor industry

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european_guy

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I'm not certain, but nest guess is Nextin is trying to take advantage of opportunity from big capacity expansion in mature process nodes in China. What do you think?

Well, if they do mature process or advanced process IMHO is not an absolute, a given, but is just a question of the current road-map. You don't make such a big investment based on where you are today.

My opinion is that if they will invest, it is due to a long term and very ambitious vision, a vision enabled by a game-changer in the market: the big incumbent KLA will leave China market (or anyhow it will be greatly reduced), and this will create a big void to fill.

Moreover KLA can still sell mature nodes in China, so the idea that Nextin will focus only on mature nodes, where KLA and the Chinese firms are, is a bit odd to me.

If they invest big in China is to replace KLA, and to do this, and to defend against local firms, you really want to go to advanced nodes, maybe not today, but a new factory is built on a 10 year vision.
 

tokenanalyst

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When it comes to inspection, there's more to it than just detection sensitivity or capability. It's more about signal-to-noise capability. No point in having detection capability to pick up defect of interest but also picking up lots of false positives. KLA had been in this game for a long time, many had challenged them over last few decades but all fall by the waist side. All challengers always demonstrate good capability on test vehicles on detection capability, buy fails during real HVM setting due to false detections. Their differentiation is they accumulated lots of usability enhancing s/w capabilities to deal with HVM related challenges. That and they have an experienced applications and field support infrastructure, which to me is also an important aspect of their dominance and significant market share.
You are saying they received a positive feedback loop from the big fabs and due a iterative process they become really good at detecting false positives. But, in my opinion, that doesn't mean they can't be replaced. If KLA can't sell their products in China i do think that Chinese and non Chinese companies are going to replace them and in the same iterative process that make their tools really good will make their competitors also really good and probably even faster because the Chinese companies now have KLA tools to benchmarks their own. Just my opinion.
 

ansy1968

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From @Oldschool , I know Huawei invest a lot in Russia, maybe there is a link between them and this institution.


Oldschool

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18 minutes agoNew
Russia orders 30 Million Loongson CPU. Seems like Russia is more China than China itself. Top selling brands of car in Russia currently is China brands and Smart Phones are pretty much all Chinese brands especially Huawei's new phones for government usage due to immunity to US , UK spying.

I have stressed the importance of own set of tools and own fabs to its government and now they are working hard toward that goal despite lack of track record. But taking the first step and initiative is important.

www.tomshardware.com

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Russian institute plans to build 7nm-capable scanner that beats ASML's analogue in several years.
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Oct 13, 2023 — Investments reaching $1 billion annually signify Huawei's intent to tap into Russia's extensive technological and scientific potential ...

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Aug 31, 2020 — “After the US included us in Entity List, we transferred our investment to Russia, expanded Russian scientists' team, and hiked salary of ...
 

sunnymaxi

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In bright-field pattern defect inspection Chinese companies (Jingce) are capable of 65nm only at the moment. There are more advanced models in the R&D phases. I think this the main bottleneck. I know Nextin cover this type of equipment and they seem to be quite advanced, that's why I was asking the question in the first place.
yes. this is the weakest link in all Non-lithography tools for China.

Jingce delivered 65nm last year and they were on track to deliver 28nm optical inspection equipment this year.

****************************************************************************
there have been research going on..

Optical wafer defect inspection at the 10 nm technology node and beyond..

Huazhong University of Science and Technology, Harbin Institute of Technology and The Chinese University of Hong Kong make a thorough review of new perspectives and exciting trends on the foundation of former great reviews in the field of defect inspection methods. The review focuses on three specific areas:

(1) the defect detectability evaluation,

(2) the diverse optical inspection systems,

(3) the post-processing algorithms...

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Optical wafer defect inspection at the 10 nm technology node and beyond
 

hvpc

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I am asking for a response.
When I was still in R&D I had worked with KLA tools and involved in many head-to-head evaluation of their challengers. Every time, the outcome is mostly the same. KLA has better application support, more thorough sets of tools to help us deal with false defects. All new comers always focus on detection sensitivity first, as this is the first prerequisite...a ticket into the boxing ring. But detection sensitivity is conducted on test wafers/reticles. Test patterns are small so the inspection area is relatively small, and because suppliers pick and chose test wafers/reticles with no random defects, the real vs false defect phenomenon is usually not observed on the initial head-to-head phase.

But, once we put new tool into production, that's when the problem comes up. When running inspection at the required sensitivity setting (setting that could capture all defects of interest), non-KLA tools would catch so much false defects that would overwhelm the system. Inspection would abort due to not enough memory to store/capture info on the plethora of false defects. When this happens, we'd need to run at lower sensitivity just to finish an inspection run, but this would be at the risk of missing real small defect of interest.

On 'normal' runs, where manageable number of false are captured, KLA has better auto-classification software that had been refined over the years with our (end user) input. User friendly features or customized features tailor to each specific fabs are not something new challenger SME would know about nor had come up with already. I would say, this is a big reason why we don't switch out from KLA even though we want a second supplier to keep KLA honest. Basically, I had not seen tools that beat KLA enough for it to make sense for us to adopt as a second vendor or to replace KLA outright.

On reticle inspection, KLA's forte is their die-to-database capability. Their ability to render a reference image from GDS file is unrivaled. Despite Lasertec having actinic light source that would give them better pattern and defect resolution...and hence better signal-to-noise, Lasertec was not able to achieve same level of GDS-to-reference image rendering. At best, Lasertec EUV reticle inspection is better than KLA's DUV die-to-die inspection. But for die-to-database inspection which is much more crucial in the R&D stage, KLA still wins out. This I was able to verify from talking to some former colleagues.

And at the end of the day, most of us prefer working with KLA because of the long history of collaboration and familiarity. That is also a moat that KLA enjoys against their challengers.

There's more reasons, but I'll just end right here. Signal-to-noise performance dictating real/false defect detection dynamic is what KLA had mastered during their multiple decade of dominance. It may sound simple, but it's what keeps KLA in the dominant position in the metrology/inspection/yield enhancement arena.
You are saying they received a positive feedback loop from the big fabs and due a iterative process they become really good at detecting false positives. But, in my opinion, that doesn't mean they can't be replaced. If KLA can't sell their products in China i do think that Chinese and non Chinese companies are going to replace them and in the same iterative process that make their tools really good will make their competitors also really good and probably even faster because the Chinese companies now have KLA tools to benchmarks their own. Just my opinion.
easier said than done. you don't see people rushing to buy Jincee inspection tools to replace KLA for 14nm...7nm.

with smaller resolution, the signal-to-noise issue gets worse. From what's happening at SMIC, they are still stuck at getting domestic tools to work efficiently at 28nm. I have not heard of major domestic inspection or metrology breakthrough that would enable replacing KLA at 14nm nor 7nm. This is why SMIC 14nm & 7nm capacity had been stuck at the same pre-Oct 7th sanction level....no change for a year now. This doesn't sound like domestic tools is making headway at 14nm/7nm, does it?
 

hvpc

Junior Member
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But according most of sources,1980Di is good enough for SMIC 7nm. So are you suggesting that 2000X have better efficiency?
you and many on SDF keep floating this false info. I drafted a long explanation but deleted it because I can't leak too much info on my customer's process. But, I'll say this, 7nm logic tool-of-record is NXT2000, NOT the NXT1980.

One major upgrade on the NXT2000 is a more robust alignment sensor to deal with 7nm HVM requirement. NXT1980 can't handle the most critical layers on 7nm node, period.

'most sources' are wrong. All those actually involved or have direct info knows it's wrong. I don't blame you for choosing to believe your only source of info. Very few have direct info on what actually goes on in advance done patterning.
 
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tonyget

Senior Member
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Can Nextin from South Korea replace KLA tools till Chinese equipment manufacturers come with workable solutions? I think they are already supplying YMTC, JHICC, CXMT and SMIC.

I think SK firms are also subject to US export control rules,see SK Hynix's official response to the mate60pro incident(their product have been found on Huawei machine). It is clear that Korean companies have to comply with US laws,de facto or de jure. So I don't think that they can sell anything to Chinese fabs which KLA cannot sell
 

hvpc

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yes. this is the weakest link in all Non-lithography tools for China.

Jingce delivered 65nm last year and they were on track to deliver 28nm optical inspection equipment this year.

****************************************************************************
there have been research going on..

Optical wafer defect inspection at the 10 nm technology node and beyond..

Huazhong University of Science and Technology, Harbin Institute of Technology and The Chinese University of Hong Kong make a thorough review of new perspectives and exciting trends on the foundation of former great reviews in the field of defect inspection methods. The review focuses on three specific areas:

(1) the defect detectability evaluation,

(2) the diverse optical inspection systems,

(3) the post-processing algorithms...

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Optical wafer defect inspection at the 10 nm technology node and beyond
This paper backed up what I stated earlier. Note this paper mentions 'defect detectability' and alogorithm that supports said defect detection. No mention of false positive detection. This is typical of anyone trying to break into this space. Had to figure out the detection capability of defects amongst the smaller design feature/patterns first. But once they achieve the detection sensitivity requirement, thee real/false detection issue would become the main impediment towards acceptance and adoption by the fabs for HVM.
 
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