Chinese semiconductor industry

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european_guy

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So NATA is late to the market here?

It's about 2 years now that they just copy paste the same statement again and again: "we are validating with customers..."

instead, as @tphuang mentioned, Sinyang (
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) seems far more advanced and, very important, actively producing it, in a kind of pre-mass production phase. IIRC what havoc told us last winter.

I'd be very curious to know where they are now....
 

tokenanalyst

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It's about 2 years now that they just copy paste the same statement again and again: "we are validating with customers..."

instead, as @tphuang mentioned, Sinyang (
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) seems far more advanced and, very important, actively producing it, in a kind of pre-mass production phase. IIRC what havoc told us last winter.

I'd be very curious to know where they are now....
That is the good thing of competition. It would be nice if there was a second domestic lithography company competing with SMEE, but is a very niche and expenisive area.
 

tonyget

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ASML tools can be used with Gigaphoton sources. That was part of the deal with the Japanese government to allow ASML to buy Cymer. Those are probably the ones that Chinese fabs are buying. As far I understand the Japanese didn't include ArFi light sources in their export controls but I think ASML should reconsider to allow their scanners to be fitted with RSLaser light sources.
I could be probably that some companies already had manage to fit RSLasers DUV sources into ASML scanners, its remember me the investment that SMIC and Huawei did on RSLaser.

I don't think the origin of technology of ASML machines matters that much,the US can always use political pressure to stop ASML from selling anything to China if they really want to,even if that technology is 100% Dutch origin.
 

supersnoop

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As long as they don't ban consumer chips, nothing really matters that can really destroy Chinese tech progress. Consumer chips are the cutting edge of Chip making anyway. So, if you are not banning consumer chips into China then what is preventing China from using those consumer chips to do whatever they want?


If the goal is to prevent Chinese supercomputer progress, then again nothing preventing China from using US made or Taiwan made server side CPU and GPU to develop large Supercomputers.

If the goal is AI progress prevention, then as I discussed in my previous posts, consumer CPU and GPU can also train AI models.

So, the only thing US can do is destroy Chinese brand of Phones or Laptop companies from creating their products. And even if China has no phone or laptop industry, they can still buy from abroad and still make progress.

And consumer chips is not bannable at all. Nothing preventing millions of chips to be re-exported by other countries. Nothing can prevent Foreign phones or laptops from ever entering China from countries.

Even the most sanctioned countries in the world have iphones and US made laptops roaming around. Blackmarket for these things is simply not stoppable. So what will prevent China's tech progress?

But all this bans and sanctions have super-charged Chinese self-reliance push for Chips. A self-goal of highest proportion by US and the west.

Looks like they are even banning consumer chips (RTX4090) already out of stock at Chinese retailers according to random comments on the internet.

Actually, the prevention of the Chinese supercomputer progress was attempted almost 10 years ago when the US banned Intel's Xeon Phi co-processor and other server grade chips. Obviously progress continued nonetheless and the ban can be considered a failure.

Really no different from the Wolf Amendment which , let's use this quote from a think-tank
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When we say the Wolf Amendment 10 years on, did it accomplish its purpose? If you look at what was Congressman Frank Wolf's purpose, which was to try to isolate the Chinese into more closely abiding with our norms in human rights, it did not accomplish its purpose at all. If we're looking at slowing their program or keeping them from developing a space program, it did not do that at all.

Yes it is a own goal.

Most American politicians are driven by hunger for power, narcissism, and a dash of racism in the case of many anti-China hawks.
They believe this kind of legislation makes them look tough on China, more electable, and I think many of them have a racist belief that Chinese people cannot innovate. All of those guys like Cotton, Cruz, DeSantis, Schumer, they are all lawyers, probably never even walked into a Science building at a university to see all the Chinese people there. I will stop here because it is OT, but just have to point out how DUMB these people are.
 

mst

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Wennink said that one additional ASML product not covered by Dutch export licensing rules
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can now be restricted under the new U.S. export rules
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.

The product, ASML's 1980Di tool, can be used to help make both relatively advanced computer chips as well as mid-range and older chips.

"In principle the 1980s would fall under the export control restrictions, but only when ... (they) are used for advanced semiconductor manufacturing," Wennink said.
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gelgoog

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"In principle the 1980s would fall under the export control restrictions, but only when ... (they) are used for advanced semiconductor manufacturing," Wennink said.
He is mincing words here. That is not how the sanctions work. He is trying to prevent massive loss of customers and revenue by losing sales to SMIC, CXMT, YMTC, and others. Dozens of machines probably. And the most expensive type they can sell to China currently which is immersion lithography. If the Dutch government caves in to pressure by the US ASML will just have to do what their own government says.
 

tokenanalyst

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I personally don't think EUV is a economically as this writer say it is, the throughput is still not there, everything else in the supply chain cost much than traditional lithography, still multi-patterning is required and maintenance cost are higher. I could make sense for "2nm and 3nm" process nodes because overlay issues but ASML solved that with their 2100i scanner.
Samsung and TSMC made that huge EUV investment expecting a long list of clients willing to pay premium but US politicians took the revenue from them.
 

tphuang

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It's about 2 years now that they just copy paste the same statement again and again: "we are validating with customers..."

instead, as @tphuang mentioned, Sinyang (
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
) seems far more advanced and, very important, actively producing it, in a kind of pre-mass production phase. IIRC what havoc told us last winter.

I'd be very curious to know where they are now....
I think Xuzhou B&C & Sinyang are at about the same place. Both producing photoresist for up to 14nm process. Qty is still low and capacity is low too, so they do have some way to go before fully supplying advanced fabs

Wennink said that one additional ASML product not covered by Dutch export licensing rules
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can now be restricted under the new U.S. export rules
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.

The product, ASML's 1980Di tool, can be used to help make both relatively advanced computer chips as well as mid-range and older chips.

"In principle the 1980s would fall under the export control restrictions, but only when ... (they) are used for advanced semiconductor manufacturing," Wennink said.
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I think we are going to have to wait and see. You don't need 1980Di for 28nm capacity at SMIC Jingcheng. 1970 and 1965 is what Jingcheng ordered IIRC.

You would use it for SMSC, HLMC, YMTC & CXMT fabs, which I think is what this is for. But we are going to have to see if they can find replacement for the American part. This kind of stuff will take some time to play out and see.

And we will see if ASML can work w/ Chinese customers to replace any American component.




On other news
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China bester group kneels down to Huawei and pledges its allegiance. I'm only mildly joking here, but this is first case of current Nvidia customer (a major one) being forced to go completely to Huawei technology.

We will see how long those jokesters are Tencent & Bytedance last.
 
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