Chinese semiconductor industry

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Blitzo

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Why would SMIC and Huawei do things in secrecy now?Like hide revenue by node process on quarterly report now. Why SMIC never announce that they can do 7nm?Why SMIC took down 14nm from their website?Why Huawei hide 5G infor on Mate60pro?

If they don't need anything from the US anymore,why would they behave like this?Apparently they can not completely break free from US inputs as of now.

That is like asking why does the PLA have so much secrecy for their weapons developments, whether it's fighter aircraft, naval ships, small arms or missiles, even though those platforms do not use anything from the US.

It's because in semiconductors, as well as in weapons development, it is now a matter of high end competition with geopolitical consequences and imperatives. Therefore, it makes sense to try and attain an information asymmetry to your geopolitical adversary, so that the adversary has the least amount of time and confidence to make assessments of your own developments for as long as practically possible to gain maximal mover advantage.

For Huawei and SMIC, what it means is that regardless of how many subsystems or materials or hardware they may still need from the US -- whether it is 99% or whether it is 1% -- it would still make sense for them to remain very quiet and secretive about their developments so as to attain maximal practical information assymetry.
 

gelgoog

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If SMIC has fully loaded its FinFET factory why would they need advertisement in the first place? Just Huawei's HiSilicon alone can probably saturate the whole thing. If you add other possible also US sanctioned companies like Phytium or Hygon to the list even more so.

My guess is SMIC and Huawei reached some sort of secret deal. Both companies went really quiet around the same time.

The FinFET facilities were likely isolated from the rest of the business at SMIC to try to avoid leakage of secrets.
 

Phead128

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Although one thing I think he is right on,is that the 7nm chip is produced in SMIC fab which is equipment with US machines,so in a sense he is right that it's not a true "breakthrough" unless SMIC can produce 7nm chip entirely free from US technology.
As Deng Xiaoping said: "It doesn't matter whether a cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice."

The mice (<14nm chips) was captured by black cat (foreign DUV) or white cat (domestic DUV) , it is still a true Chinese breakthrough against US sanctions. Never underestimate Chinese craze for all color of cats, including Orange cats (domestic EUV).

Why would SMIC and Huawei do things in secrecy now?Like hide revenue by node process on quarterly report now. Why SMIC never announce that they can do 7nm?Why SMIC took down 14nm from their website?Why Huawei hide 5G infor on Mate60pro?

If they don't need anything from the US anymore,why would they behave like this?Apparently they can not completely break free from US inputs as of now.

I think you are shifting the goal posts. The original goal was no <14nm, no matter using foreign or domestic equipment. Now that China breakthrough US sanctions using foreign equipment, the goalpost has shifted to domestic equipment self-sufficiency. That's just cope.

If you are a US policy maker trying to kill China semiconductor development, you want zero production of <14nm, with or without foreign equipment. The lack of complete self-sufficiency is a cope, since no company are free of foreign inputs, so it's really not a huge deal as long as China can maintain its huge ASML DUV stockpile until domestic DUV or EUV is ready.
 

Minm

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That is like asking why does the PLA have so much secrecy for their weapons developments, whether it's fighter aircraft, naval ships, small arms or missiles, even though those platforms do not use anything from the US.

It's because in semiconductors, as well as in weapons development, it is now a matter of high end competition with geopolitical consequences and imperatives. Therefore, it makes sense to try and attain an information asymmetry to your geopolitical adversary, so that the adversary has the least amount of time and confidence to make assessments of your own developments for as long as practically possible to gain maximal mover advantage.

For Huawei and SMIC, what it means is that regardless of how many subsystems or materials or hardware they may still need from the US -- whether it is 99% or whether it is 1% -- it would still make sense for them to remain very quiet and secretive about their developments so as to attain maximal practical information assymetry.
Information asymmetry on technology is why the Soviet Union never developed competitive consumer products. At some point you need to advertise what you have. Huawei alone isn't enough, all other manufacturers should know what chips are available domestically.

As soon as a fully domestic supply chain is established, China should advertise it's products and export them to the free world. Like giving Maduro a new phone.

From October last year to today they've been stockpiling western equipment, so it made sense to be secretive. But now, what's the point? They're going to try to ban as much as possible anyway. Or is the goal to try to import DUV for as long as possible, before that's restricted as well?
 

Blitzo

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Information asymmetry on technology is why the Soviet Union never developed competitive consumer products. At some point you need to advertise what you have. Huawei alone isn't enough, all other manufacturers should know what chips are available domestically.

You seem to be making a bunch of straw man arguments which I never suggested.
I never stated that "Huawei alone is enough" in the overall semiconductor industry.
Furthermore, I never suggested that either Huawei or SMIC or other elements of China's semiconductor industry should seek for "total information blackout".
I also never suggested that they should never advertise their products.

I said that they should seek to be sufficiently quiet about their developments to achieve maximal practical information asymmetry.
The relative surprise unveiling of the Mate 60 and the Kirin 9000S is an excellent example of that.
Imagine if Huawei and SMIC had been more transparent compared to other companies and if they had actually chosen to announce the development and pursuits of a domestically produced process months or even years ahead of its actual release.



The reason why the Soviet Union never developed competitive consumer products is wide ranging, not least due to the structure and incentives for private enterprise, consumption and competition.
It wasn't due to a desire for secrecy in specific nationally important and geopolitically relevant sectors.


For China's semiconductor industry, it absolutely makes sense to withhold and keep quiet about certain geopolitically relevant and sensitive products, technologies and capabilities until they are ready to disclose them in a manner that minimizes blowback or risk and maximizes commercial or geopolitical advantage.



As soon as a fully domestic supply chain is established, China should advertise it's products and export them to the free world. Like giving Maduro a new phone.

Obviously once domestic products are available and reach a given stage of maturity, they should be openly traded and exported both domestically and abroad.
However, that does not mean disclosing developmental efforts and pathways when the products are not yet mature and when the domestic industry overall is yet to be technologically at parity..



From October last year to today they've been stockpiling western equipment, so it made sense to be secretive. But now, what's the point? They're going to try to ban as much as possible anyway. Or is the goal to try to import DUV for as long as possible, before that's restricted as well?

Yes, the US will probably try to ban as much as possible.

That doesn't mean it is in Huawei, or SMIC, or China's overall semiconductor industry's interests to provide more information to the general public than needed.

Openly disclosing the complexity of the chips they can make, or providing information as to the directions in which their chip development is going, and developmental pathways, is commercially and geopolitically stupid. Developmental efforts should be only conveyed to relevant subsuppliers domestically and industries in the domestic field when necessary, and once development is finished and production is well underway, those efforts can be conveyed to the public once ready for being put on the market and/or export.

That isn't only due to concerns of the US trying to put in other sanctions or countermeasures (there is much more that the US can implement in theory outside of merely banning all western equipment/subsystems/materials to Huawei or SMIC, and announcing new developments may also cause the US to redouble their own domestic advancements) -- but also to catch commercial competitors offguard and minimize their reaction time in being able to put out competing products or develop more effective competing strategies.
Overall the intent is to delay both the geopolitical/geoeconomic and commercial competitor responses to their semiconductor progress, for as long as possible.


Being more open and "confident" about their developmental efforts only really makes sense once the domestic Chinese semiconductor industry is more advanced either at near parity, parity or superiority compared to other global champions. And it may also require China to be more geopolitically and geo-economically dominant as prerequisites as well.


Putting it another way, it only really makes sense for the Chinese semiconductor industry to be more "open" and "transparent" about their developments once they have a massive technological and market lead in the sector in a manner which is relatively unassailable and where they are not at much risk of geopolitical and geoeconomic blackmail (whether it be in terms of economic policy, technological blockade, market access, or otherwise).
Think about China's EV battery industry or solar and wind power industry -- they can be relatively "open" and "transparent" about developments in those industries because the above criteria are fulfilled due to China being so far ahead in technology and market share, and because those domains are not targets of intense geopolitical strife.
 
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tphuang

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This seems incredibly brittle to me. Don't these new machines need maintenance/spare parts?

They are betting their current expansion on gear that can brick out tomorrow morning, sneaking through loopholes of the current US rules (i.e. 18.7nm instead of 18nm)....I really hope they know what they are doing.

OTH we can infer from this expansion that they already have enough ASML machines, otherwise expansion would be impossible.
which is why I think they will use domestic tools quite a bit too. If they don't use AMEC tools in their D1x process, then there is no way of debugging through its issues and improving it.

As for ASML, I think we can safely say they have enough ASML machines for a while. Also, it seems to me that memory chip production more on etching/disposition than logic chip production.
Imagine Huawei gaming GPU. They have their own mobile GPU. Imagine Huawei AI accelerator too. When China emerge as the leader of semiconductor the good design house will shine.
HW already have their own AI accelerator in Ascend/Davinci. That's been around for a while.

So ideally, it would go something like this with GPU:
Smartphone SoC GPU -> tablet SoC GPU -> laptop built in GPU -> full on PC GPU card

People are going to use Mate 60 for plenty of gaming. Which will give Hisilicon folks a lot of opportunities in improving it.
 

tphuang

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Removed that original bad/random take on some slides that was derailing this thread & also some associated posts.

I will say on the topic of opsec, I'm anticipating 3 more years from this. Next year will still be very tough. Another transition year for leading edge fabs in China.
 

tokenanalyst

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Another "US tech expert" talk about Chinese semiconductor equipment progress. I’m not sure how accurate is their survey,but it's in line with main stream Western perception on this issue. Although one thing I think he is right on,is that the 7nm chip is produced in SMIC fab which is equipment with US machines,so in a sense he is right that it's not a true "breakthrough" unless SMIC can produce 7nm chip entirely free from US technology.




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Looks like a cope emergency meeting, this guys are making gross assumptions with no examples, I don't think they don't really understand the Chinese industry or the semiconductor industry overall, could be that their views are base in the very little information they are desperately seeking to confirm their prejudices.
We know there is a lot of Chinese players are validating their tools for 28nm and a less. SMIC has invested and is collaborating with a lot of this companies. A tool validated for a 28nm could be validated for 14nm and even 7nm, some tools are just one iteration away from a more advance process node.
Also how could be that Chinese SME companies are doubling their sales year after year even when the entire industry is down and they still hold 3%? makes no sense.

This is interesting quote from the eetimes of something that we have been saying here for a long time.

China’s chipmaking capabilities are not well-understood in Washington, Thurston said. “How do you actually estimate China’s technological capability? We don’t really understand. U.S. companies have done a poor job. I’m sure TSMC understands much better than others.”

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The question is how is that the guys who are deep in the industry are really concern that this sanctions are making the Chinese to innovate their way out, while the loud voices for these controls are coming mostly from humanity graduates?
 
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