Chinese semiconductor industry

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tphuang

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Well, I think it's a good time to explain to a neophyte what this actually means.
My assumption was that chip to chip transfer speed is important when down data sets are broken down to be analyzed in parallel.
If this the Chinese version is running at 60% of this speed, then conversely you could make up for it with more chips.

They are also buying nVidia chips because the article says the price performance ratio is still good. It is also routinely discussed here and elsewhere that CUDA is well established and there exists a large talent pool for it.

There is no shame in buying or needing nVidia chips at the moment. nVidia has been around for decades, I wouldn't expect there to be big Chinese competition all of a sudden. Heck, why is AMD so behind nVidia in this department even?
Not really about shame or no shame, just we need to understand what the issues are at hand and why they are buying Nvidia.

Saying china need to buy 2x number of chips because of lower chip to chip transfer speed is just not true. They are buying a lot of Nvidia chips because they are expanding computational power overall.

Whether Chinese ai programs will run slower depends on many factors. And only 25% of computational power are used for ai applications.

They added 57 eflops of computational power from end of 2021 until now. They are likely to add 75 eflops over next 18 months. The $5b order for Nvidia probably only gets them about 12 eflops. People should probably ask why so little % of their orders are going to Nvidia? Things that never gets explored by msm
 

paiemon

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Well, I think it's a good time to explain to a neophyte what this actually means.
My assumption was that chip to chip transfer speed is important when down data sets are broken down to be analyzed in parallel.
If this the Chinese version is running at 60% of this speed, then conversely you could make up for it with more chips.

They are also buying nVidia chips because the article says the price performance ratio is still good. It is also routinely discussed here and elsewhere that CUDA is well established and there exists a large talent pool for it.

There is no shame in buying or needing nVidia chips at the moment. nVidia has been around for decades, I wouldn't expect there to be big Chinese competition all of a sudden. Heck, why is AMD so behind nVidia in this department even?
To put it simply, the software ecosystem such as the supporting libraries for AMD hardware is not as developed as Nvidia and also, they don't share many libraries. So essentially, developing for AMD requires more work in terms of software implementation because many of the functions in the libraries you will need to implement yourself, instead of just importing a library and calling on the commands. This is especially tedious when you are looking at having to implement in code complicated math operations, transformations, etc which is what alot of these libraries are intended for. Additional considerations would be the interfaces would differ between the two HW systems, so that would require rewrites as well. It just requires more upfront effort, but since time is money if you have the choice of not having to rewrite those implementations you would default to using Nvidia. The same would apply to switching to any other platform such as those offered by chinese vendors.
 

tokenanalyst

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This is important I think. I wonder where smic is with this? Wasn't tsmc already doing 22nm rram on their MCUs?

Crossbar ReRAM in Production at SMIC​


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Looks like SMIC started in 2016 to make RRAM products licensing IP from a company called crossbar so they already have some experience. But I think this product like NAND and DRAM will be make in specialize process fabs.
 

KYli

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The leading association of global chip companies is warning that
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is building a collection of secret semiconductor-fabrication facilities across China, a shadow manufacturing network that would let the blacklisted company skirt US sanctions and further the nation’s technology ambitions.

Huawei, a controversial telecommunications gear maker at the heart of US-China tensions, moved into chip production last year and is receiving an estimated $30 billion in state funding from the government and its home town of Shenzhen, according to the Washington-based
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. It’s acquired at least two existing plants and is building at least three others, the group said in a presentation to its members seen by Bloomberg.

The US Commerce Department put Huawei on its entity list in 2019, eventually prohibiting it from working with American companies in almost all circumstances. But if Huawei is constructing and buying facilities under the names of other companies without disclosing its involvement, as the SIA said, the telecom giant may be able to circumvent those restrictions to indirectly purchase American chipmaking equipment and other supplies that would otherwise be prohibited.

The Commerce Department’s
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, in response to questions from Bloomberg News about the SIA warnings, which haven’t been previously reported, said it’s monitoring the situation and is ready to take action if necessary. It has already blacklisted dozens of Chinese companies beyond Huawei, including two the SIA says are part of Huawei’s network —
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and Pengxinwei IC Manufacturing Co., or PXW.

“Given the severe restrictions placed on Huawei,
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,
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and others, it is no surprise that they have sought substantial state support to attempt to develop indigenous technologies,”
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said in a statement to Bloomberg. “BIS is continually reviewing and updating its export controls based on the evolving threat environment and, as evidenced by the Oct. 7, 2022 rules, will not hesitate to take appropriate action to protect US national security.”

The Biden administration
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last October that prevent all Chinese companies from acquiring certain advanced semiconductors and chipmaking equipment, a move aimed at restricting the country’s military capabilities. Chinese companies are largely allowed to buy older-generation chipmaking equipment, machines that use 28-nanometer technology or above. But blacklisted companies like Huawei are prohibited from such purchases without a license and those exceptions are rare.

Huawei, PXW, Fujian Jinhua and the other companies identified by SIA as part of the network did not respond to requests for comment. Beijing has voiced fierce opposition to American export controls and made
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that the US also subsidizes its own national champions.

It’s not clear why the SIA is sounding the alarm on these issues now. The Washington-based lobbying group represents the majority of the world’s semiconductor makers, including
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, South Korea’s
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and
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Its members also include companies that produce chipmaking equipment, such as
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and the Netherlands’
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.

Certain members of the lobbying group will face competition from Chinese rivals if they’re successful in building domestic production facilities, but SIA members like ASML and
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lose revenue from China as American export controls become stricter. The association may be trying to warn members to be cautious in working with companies that could have hidden ties to blacklisted entities like Huawei.

Under
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, American suppliers have
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that require them to check into clients if there are any suspicious circumstances, like purchases inconsistent with the customer’s needs.

18adfb4809f7978b16cb3194b9ce617a5a6448c9.jpg
If there’s a red flag, then you have an obligation to investigate,” said Kevin Wolf, a partner with the law firm Akin Gump who worked on BIS policy at the Commerce Department. “Absent a red flag, there is no affirmative duty to verify or go beyond the company’s representations.”

The SIA presentation has set off alarm bells at member companies and within the Biden administration since it was published in April. The US is weighing more stringent export controls on China.

China’s Communist Party has blasted the American government for its restrictions on technology exports to the country, arguing the US is trying to contain its economic development. Beijing has also vowed to develop its own local alternatives for chips, production machinery and critical tech components.

China is pouring unprecedented amounts of money into its domestic semiconductor industry. The SIA estimates there are at least 23 fabrication facilities in the works in the country with planned investments of more than $100 billion by 2030, according to the presentation. By 2029 or 2030, China is on track to have more than half the industry’s global capacity in older-generation semiconductors, those made with 28-nm or 45-nm technology, the group said.

“China is roughly spending as much in subsidies as the rest of the world combined,” said
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, author of “Chip War: The Fight for the World’s Most Critical Technology.” “So the numbers are absolutely enormous.”

US and European officials have grown
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about China’s massive investments in so-called legacy chips, even though they are not prohibited under last year’s Biden rules. Such chips are more than adequate for many military applications, and they’re widely used in key markets such as electric cars.

The size of the projected financial support for Huawei is also staggering. At $30 billion, the money would be almost as much as the
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in the US Chips and Science Act that will be split among multiple companies.

The SIA described the money as “state funding” without specifying whether that would be cash grants, loans or other incentives. It’s not clear whether
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in recent months will affect the government’s technology investments.

The SIA presentation identifies five chip plants that Huawei is backing under other company names, located mainly around Shenzhen where the telecom giant is headquartered. If the facilities operate without the Huawei label, as the SIA said, it may be difficult for suppliers to know who they are dealing with. The businesses all appear to be operating entities, rather than simple fronts with no facilities.

Huawei's Push Into Chips​

The leading US chip association says the Chinese telecom company is moving into semiconductor production
NameProductLocation
Qingdao Si'EnPower ICs and MicrocontrollersQingdao
Fujian JinhuaDRAMQuanzhou
SwaySureDRAMShenzhen
PXWImage sensors, RF chipsShenzhen
PSTLogicShenzhen
 

tphuang

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Huawei's Push Into Chips​

The leading US chip association says the Chinese telecom company is moving into semiconductor production
NameProductLocation
Qingdao Si'EnPower ICs and MicrocontrollersQingdao
Fujian JinhuaDRAMQuanzhou
SwaySureDRAMShenzhen
PXWImage sensors, RF chipsShenzhen
PSTLogicShenzhen
funny that they are sounding the alarm now. Jinhua has been known for a while. 1st time I've heard about Qingdao Si'en.

Also, PST is not the name i got. It is PXX (鹏新旭)

 

tygyg1111

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Registered Member
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The leading association of global chip companies is warning that
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
is building a collection of secret semiconductor-fabrication facilities across China, a shadow manufacturing network that would let the blacklisted company skirt US sanctions and further the nation’s technology ambitions.

Huawei, a controversial telecommunications gear maker at the heart of US-China tensions, moved into chip production last year and is receiving an estimated $30 billion in state funding from the government and its home town of Shenzhen, according to the Washington-based
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. It’s acquired at least two existing plants and is building at least three others, the group said in a presentation to its members seen by Bloomberg.

The US Commerce Department put Huawei on its entity list in 2019, eventually prohibiting it from working with American companies in almost all circumstances. But if Huawei is constructing and buying facilities under the names of other companies without disclosing its involvement, as the SIA said, the telecom giant may be able to circumvent those restrictions to indirectly purchase American chipmaking equipment and other supplies that would otherwise be prohibited.

The Commerce Department’s
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, in response to questions from Bloomberg News about the SIA warnings, which haven’t been previously reported, said it’s monitoring the situation and is ready to take action if necessary. It has already blacklisted dozens of Chinese companies beyond Huawei, including two the SIA says are part of Huawei’s network —
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and Pengxinwei IC Manufacturing Co., or PXW.

“Given the severe restrictions placed on Huawei,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and others, it is no surprise that they have sought substantial state support to attempt to develop indigenous technologies,”
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
said in a statement to Bloomberg. “BIS is continually reviewing and updating its export controls based on the evolving threat environment and, as evidenced by the Oct. 7, 2022 rules, will not hesitate to take appropriate action to protect US national security.”

The Biden administration
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
last October that prevent all Chinese companies from acquiring certain advanced semiconductors and chipmaking equipment, a move aimed at restricting the country’s military capabilities. Chinese companies are largely allowed to buy older-generation chipmaking equipment, machines that use 28-nanometer technology or above. But blacklisted companies like Huawei are prohibited from such purchases without a license and those exceptions are rare.

Huawei, PXW, Fujian Jinhua and the other companies identified by SIA as part of the network did not respond to requests for comment. Beijing has voiced fierce opposition to American export controls and made
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
that the US also subsidizes its own national champions.

It’s not clear why the SIA is sounding the alarm on these issues now. The Washington-based lobbying group represents the majority of the world’s semiconductor makers, including
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, South Korea’s
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Its members also include companies that produce chipmaking equipment, such as
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and the Netherlands’
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.

Certain members of the lobbying group will face competition from Chinese rivals if they’re successful in building domestic production facilities, but SIA members like ASML and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
lose revenue from China as American export controls become stricter. The association may be trying to warn members to be cautious in working with companies that could have hidden ties to blacklisted entities like Huawei.

Under
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, American suppliers have
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
that require them to check into clients if there are any suspicious circumstances, like purchases inconsistent with the customer’s needs.

18adfb4809f7978b16cb3194b9ce617a5a6448c9.jpg
If there’s a red flag, then you have an obligation to investigate,” said Kevin Wolf, a partner with the law firm Akin Gump who worked on BIS policy at the Commerce Department. “Absent a red flag, there is no affirmative duty to verify or go beyond the company’s representations.”

The SIA presentation has set off alarm bells at member companies and within the Biden administration since it was published in April. The US is weighing more stringent export controls on China.

China’s Communist Party has blasted the American government for its restrictions on technology exports to the country, arguing the US is trying to contain its economic development. Beijing has also vowed to develop its own local alternatives for chips, production machinery and critical tech components.

China is pouring unprecedented amounts of money into its domestic semiconductor industry. The SIA estimates there are at least 23 fabrication facilities in the works in the country with planned investments of more than $100 billion by 2030, according to the presentation. By 2029 or 2030, China is on track to have more than half the industry’s global capacity in older-generation semiconductors, those made with 28-nm or 45-nm technology, the group said.

“China is roughly spending as much in subsidies as the rest of the world combined,” said
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, author of “Chip War: The Fight for the World’s Most Critical Technology.” “So the numbers are absolutely enormous.”

US and European officials have grown
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
about China’s massive investments in so-called legacy chips, even though they are not prohibited under last year’s Biden rules. Such chips are more than adequate for many military applications, and they’re widely used in key markets such as electric cars.

The size of the projected financial support for Huawei is also staggering. At $30 billion, the money would be almost as much as the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in the US Chips and Science Act that will be split among multiple companies.

The SIA described the money as “state funding” without specifying whether that would be cash grants, loans or other incentives. It’s not clear whether
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in recent months will affect the government’s technology investments.

The SIA presentation identifies five chip plants that Huawei is backing under other company names, located mainly around Shenzhen where the telecom giant is headquartered. If the facilities operate without the Huawei label, as the SIA said, it may be difficult for suppliers to know who they are dealing with. The businesses all appear to be operating entities, rather than simple fronts with no facilities.

Huawei's Push Into Chips​

The leading US chip association says the Chinese telecom company is moving into semiconductor production
NameProductLocation
Qingdao Si'EnPower ICs and MicrocontrollersQingdao
Fujian JinhuaDRAMQuanzhou
SwaySureDRAMShenzhen
PXWImage sensors, RF chipsShenzhen
PSTLogicShenzhen
Cry abt it - the workers there all wear Xinjiang cotton as well
 
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