Chinese semiconductor industry

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AndrewS

Brigadier
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...cont

Greater challenges

It may be fate, or it may be a coincidence, but at a time when the Chip War is in full swing, the fourth industrial revolution driven by AI has begun.

At the end of 2022, the roar of OpenAI brought a new world to carbon-based humans, and also made the Chip War part of a wider confrontation. In fact, the United States has already restricted Chinese technology companies from accessing the latest AI chips, and plans to prohibit American capital from investing in Chinese artificial intelligence companies, according to reports.

As we all know, the early stage of the industrial revolution (initiation stage) is a period of emerging new technologies, dazzling new models, and emerging new giants. If we cannot keep up with the changes in core technologies at this time, the gap later on may become increasingly wider. A small mistake can lead to a big loss, and it will take more time and money to catch up later on.

During the initiation stage of the first industrial revolution (steam engine), China adopted a closed-door policy; during the initiation of the second industrial revolution (electricity), China was in a turbulent period at the end of the Qing Dynasty; and during the initiation of the third industrial revolution (computers), although new China was catching up synchronously, the progress was greatly affected by political movements.

Therefore, every footnote in history tells us: we cannot fall behind this time.

Fortunately, China still has some foundation in the field of AI. Since 2012, internet giants and startups have been continuously pouring into the AI field. Although it was the Americans who discovered the new continent, looking around the world, China seems to be the only country closely following behind, and there is no need to underestimate ourselves.

However, there are also many unfavorable factors. Firstly, the methodology used by the US in the Chip War will definitely be extended to the field of artificial intelligence. However, unlike the global division of labor and the ultra-long industrial chain in semiconductors, most of the fields in artificial intelligence are innovative at the software level, and the chain is relatively short, with a lower (but not zero) probability of being strangleheld than semiconductors.

Secondly, venture capital funds are in short supply. Due to the influence of geopolitics and [the slump in] Chinese ADRs, it is an open secret that US dollar funds cannot be raised. The RMB market is greatly affected by local finances. Therefore, the current AI entrepreneurship wave in China is far smaller than the mobile Internet wave ten years ago, and it is also far smaller than the currently thriving scene in Silicon Valley.

In terms of basic innovation, there is still a relatively large gap in China. The Bell Labs, which invented the transistor, and OpenAI, which launched GPT, are essentially "raised" by large companies (the former is AT&T, and the latter is Microsoft). China currently lacks such roles (government-funded Beijing Academy of Artificial Intelligence and Shanghai AI Lab are potential candidates).

If we cannot keep up with innovation, there will be an awkward situation of "if you dare to open source, I dare to innovate". [Baiguan note: this is a piece of satire on the phenomenon that a lot of innovation in China is based on open-source technology in other parts of the world.]

In the years leading up to the outbreak of a new technological revolution, countries that actively embrace it are likely to create a "generational gap" with their rivals. For example, the British invented tanks in 1915, but Germany was the first to form an armored army centered around tanks, with combat power far surpassing that of other surrounding countries. After that, they swept almost the entire European continent with lightning warfare.

Cooperation between the US military and technology departments has always been smooth - the Minuteman Intercontinental Missile was once the earliest major customer of integrated circuits, digesting 20% of shipments. And US defense suppliers such as Palantir and Ghost Robotics have already launched military products that incorporate the latest AI technology earlier this year.

Mao Zedong once said: "The Anti-Japanese War cannot be rushed, but the Liberation War cannot be delayed." The same saying may apply to the current situation: "The Chip War cannot be rushed, but the War of AI cannot be delayed."

In 1900, global steel production was 28 million tons, and oil production was 20 million tons. By 2022, these two numbers have become 1.88 billion tons and 204 million tons respectively - steel and oil are undoubtedly the basic raw materials for constructing human industrial civilization for more than a century. In the 21st century, however, silicon is the new steel and oil.

Before Pearl Harbor, the focus of the US embargo was on steel and oil, which were the foundations for military victory due to their strong metallurgical and refining capabilities. After the failure of the Moscow campaign, Germany fought desperately to advance towards the Caucasus, just to seize the Baku oil field - each era has its own strategic resources, and losing them is tantamount to failure.

We are at an unprecedented intersection of the industrial revolution and the great power game. Respect the law, maintain awe, and be full of confidence, and dawn will surely come.

---

Our Take

We agree with Boss Dai that, when looking at China’s semiconductor industry, the right assumption to make is not that the US ban will slow down its development. Rather, the ban might actually help create conditions for growth that wouldn’t become possible if Chinese end-users still had access to more competitive foreign chips and equipment.

In the end, when it comes to high-end chip-making, there is no theoretical barrier barring China. It is not as if there are some fundamental law of physics and chemistry that Chinese engineers do not know. The main obstacle is accumulation of technical know-how, which in turn requires sustained support of large amount of patient capital, something that is not possible till now.

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ZeEa5KPul

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In the past decade, the domestic semiconductor industry has made significant progress. However, public opinion often has a tendency to focus on lithography, to the extent that the belief "if China cannot produce EUV lithography machines, its semiconductor industry is not capable" has become very popular. This viewpoint is neither objective nor correct, and it obscures the efforts and hard work of many people, but it is widely embraced.
It's widely embraced because it is both objective and correct. Without EUV, the Chinese semiconductor industry hits a hard stop no matter how capable other parts of it are, and truth be told the DUV lithography part isn't great either.

It would be better if the author wrote about the progress being made here and when a completely indigenous supply chain will be ready rather than some cope about lithography being secondary and a non-sequitur about AI. AI doesn't run on air, it runs on semiconductors - very capable ones - and Chinese AI will be hobbled if China can't supply itself with the semiconductors it needs.
 

tonyget

Senior Member
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SMIC's 7nm line expansion is under process.. so in 2025 Nvidia chip sales will drop in mainland.

Whether Nvidia chip sales will drop in mainland or not in 2025,really depends on whether US export restriction further tighten or stay the same or loosen.

By 2025 Nvidia's GPU will be on TSMC's 2nm process,GPU using SMIC 7nm is no match of it. But like I said,if US export restriction remain the same or further tighten by 2025,Nvidia can not sell anything better than H800 in China,then Chinese domestic GPU will have a better time on Chinese market.
 

tphuang

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Sorry, I just removed that last link and responses to it. I don't think it's helpful to be discussing a topic that's being beaten to death already. A lot of China's achievements are well discussed on this thread.

We are getting to August 1st, when ga and ge sanctions go in effect, so there seems to be a concerted effort by some in the west to post stories like "we are doing great and China's sanctions are useless" to justify extremely foolish policies.

I'm surprised there is no discussion on what I posted earlier on the reports of SMEE lithography machine. It's interesting to try figure out if anything has changed or if China is playing the same game of assuring public that things are going great. We will find out.


Until then, I think seeing how China enforce these initial sanctions is a bellwether of actions to come. Let's move discussion of discussing stupid western articles that provide non knowledgeable takes
 

tphuang

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Whether Nvidia chip sales will drop in mainland or not in 2025,really depends on whether US export restriction further tighten or stay the same or loosen.

By 2025 Nvidia's GPU will be on TSMC's 2nm process,GPU using SMIC 7nm is no match of it. But like I said,if US export restriction remain the same or further tighten by 2025,Nvidia can not sell anything better than H800 in China,then Chinese domestic GPU will have a better time on Chinese market.
so I think this is actually kind of related to what's going to happen, so I will address this.

Part of the missing piece of Ge sanction is the effect on GAAFet. Given that at least half of the Ge exports are taken off the market if China does a full export sanction, there just isn't Ge left for fabs if yo consider all the Ge needed for the US military and other part of security apparatus.

So while TSMC may want to do 2nm, it will have a bunch of machines with no raw material to use. As such, we will find out soon enough how much success China has in blocking Ge usage. Will China go full on blockade like I would advise or will it go soft. We will see?
 

sunnymaxi

Captain
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'm surprised there is no discussion on what I posted earlier on the reports of SMEE lithography machine. It's interesting to try figure out if anything has changed or if China is playing the same game of assuring public that things are going great. We will find out.
sir Xinhua News Agency is one of the most serious and credible official media in the country. if they are posting such stuff it means there is something. but we should have wait for more information regarding delivery of first commercially viable SSA800i machine..
 

tonyget

Senior Member
Registered Member
Regarding SMEE lithography machine,havok is my only trusted source,unfortunately he has been disappeared for a while. What I do know from his older post,is that 28nm machine has been undergoing tests on production line,and fully domestic line will take around 2-3 years to mature
 
It's widely embraced because it is both objective and correct. Without EUV, the Chinese semiconductor industry hits a hard stop no matter how capable other parts of it are, and truth be told the DUV lithography part isn't great either.

It would be better if the author wrote about the progress being made here and when a completely indigenous supply chain will be ready rather than some cope about lithography being secondary and a non-sequitur about AI. AI doesn't run on air, it runs on semiconductors - very capable ones - and Chinese AI will be hobbled if China can't supply itself with the semiconductors it needs.
Lithography is important but it's not the only area that needed to be developed. You cannot achieve chip independence with just lithography. The supply chain for producing advanced chips is unimaginably complex and expansive, and funds, resources, and talent must be allocated across multiple industries and countless technologies in order to indigenize the entire supply chain. Even the supply chain and technological dependencies for lithography itself is very complicated, ie light sources, chemicals, optics, and goes far beyond simply creating the final machines. Most critical goal should be mastery and mass production of fully indigenous DUVi machines within next 1-2 years, and prototype EUV machines shortly after.
 

HighGround

Senior Member
Registered Member
NAURA/AMEC and other Chinese tools makers have record earning in 2022. from 50% to 100% YOY jump in revenue.

28nm supply chain has completed. West/Japan can only cry now.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 28nm (and below) supply chain is only "complete" in the sense that all of the research is done. All of these companies still need to expand production and actually make all of these things in quantity.

Chinese fabs are still dominated by foreign machines and inputs, and it'll take a while before Chinese alternatives sell enough product to saturate the Chinese market.

Is my understanding of the situation correct?
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
That article about SMEE 28nm litho is non-news. It only rehashes the same things we have been hearing for over two years. What we have been waiting for is to see it used in actual production. But if we are to believe rumors, even the 90nm machine tool which supposedly is available by SMEE is not used in production by any fab.

As for GAA FET. I never heard of it using germanium or gallium at all. It is just a transistor architecture. It literally means Gate All Around Field Effect Transistor. So I do not know what you are talking about. The ban on germanium and gallium will most likely affect things like RF chips and space based solar panels. Not regular high end logic chips. If China really, really wanted to stop production at TSMC, then they should do like Russia and ban exports of neon gas.
 
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