Chinese semiconductor industry

Status
Not open for further replies.

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
This was the article on their production line with Sai Micro in Beijing opening back in Dec 2022
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
more recently Memsonics said

They are fully ready for high end BAW filter mass production and cost is down. 5G is no longer an issue. Qorvo stocks are in trouble imo


so 10k wpm eventually. Maybe that's enough for 10 million chips per month? BAW filter, should be pretty small. I would imagine. 1000 per 8-inch wafer is my guess, but who knows. They've been working together on this since August 2021. So, it's taken a while to break the barrier

Another thing to think about
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Huawei said about it
so now that we established that BAW filter is important. How many can they support? Well, doesn't work like I thought.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Looks like a 5G phone would need over 70 filters (BAW or SAW types) for different bands that it needs to be able to accept for 2G, 3G, 4G, 5G, blue tooth, different wifi bands, GPS & other GNSS. This is vs maybe half that for 4G phones. So just BAW filter alone, you might need 30 of them for the higher bands that BAW filters are more optimized for. Here is a chart of which band to use BAW vs TC-SAW vs conventional SAW. Basically, BAW makes sense from 1.5GHz to 6GHz
361935.png

361929.png

Just as I estimated. Each 5G phone require $12 of filters

360618.png

For SAW filter. Each 4-inch wafer has 5000 SAW filter. Each wafer is 300RMB. China's SAW market is 15.5B SAW worth about 930M RMB in 2019

360615.png

In 2019, there were probably 600 million mobile phones sold by Chinese phone makers? Each phone needed about 25-30 SAW filter?

Looks like in the past Huawei have already invested in firms producing SAW filters. Including one that produces 50million a quarter
360628.png

But still major ground to make up
the inadequacy of domestic production can be seen here

Just 660m produced in 2019 when the need was 15.5B

But what about BAW
if they get to 2k 8-inch wpm, how many can they produce.
Well according to this Akoustis page
the 150 mm fab’s capacity is
ultimately scalable to 150,000 wafer starts per year,
which will support up to 5 billion XBAW filters per year
So 150k 6-inch wafer produces 5B BAW filters, which works out to 33.333k filters/6-inch wafer. Using 8-inch wafer having 80% surface area than 6-inch, this works out to 60k filters/8-inch wafer.

2k 8-inch wafers -> 120million filters. If each 5G phone requires 30 BAW -> 4 million phones, if 40 BAW -> 3 million phones. I still need to research here.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
but how fast can they ramp up to match local need?

here is a chart up until 2019
360635.png


things to consider
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
良率方面:与海外厂商90%以上的良率相比,中国滤波器厂商良率约为70%。

3、滤波器市场巨大。滤波器是射频前端芯片中价值量最高的细分领域,且增长最快。从射频前端价值分布占比来看,滤波器占比达53%。一部5G手机要用到50-70个滤波器芯片,国内每年需要200亿颗滤波器芯片,市场规模达1500亿元。其中国内自产不足20亿颗,90%以上需要从国外进口。高端的高频滤波器芯片国内自产为0,是国内卡脖子程度最深的芯片品类。主要厂商为美国Skyworks、Avago、日本Murata、TDK等少数几家企业。
for a long time, Chinese RF filter yield was only 70% vs 90% internationally.

Production was just 2B a year and only for SAW filter, when they need 20B RF filter at least

Quite a few players here from China
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
在 SAW 滤波器领域,目前
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
、德清华莹、好达电子、
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
的 SAW 滤波器已经通过部分品牌厂商验证阶段,开始为 ODM 以及 HOVM 进行量产供货。
BAW 滤波器拥有尖端技术布局,有望成为突围关键。国内拥有 BAW 技术的厂商包括中电 26 所、开元通信、天津诺思、武汉敏声,目前中电 26 所及开元通信产品尚处于研发验证阶段,而天津诺思已经在天津、南昌等地投产 15 亿颗/年 的 MEMS 工艺生产线,已经实现了批量量产
CETC is really everywhere. 26th institute produces SAW, TC-SAW & BAW for the military and can provide SAW for Huawei & ZTE

Sanan started SAW production in April 2021, by end of 2021, they had capacity for 100m per month, although actual sales more like 10million
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
but they captured some large clients like FoxConn/Nokia and even Samsung
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

in this research report
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

you can see the degree of dominance by different firms back in 2019 at different segment of the RF front end
check page 12, basically RF front end are made of the 2 metal they are banning & BAW/SAW filter, lol
Somewhat related? I think so
 

paiemon

Junior Member
Registered Member
Subcontract OEM equivalent replacements for wear parts without being sued.
Is that what they did for AMAT/KLA/LAM when the servicing ban hit? I recall seeing news that YMTC was complaining about being stuck with a bunch of scrap metal due to the ban and wanted OEM's to buyback but didn't see any further follow-up on whether they got compensation or if there were further actions? And isn't the ASML servicing restrictions still on in the wait and see mode at this moment?

Fro my experience with contracts for capital equipment, the chance of a buyback/compensation for disruptions by the OEM are slim to none unless they are returning it due to warranty or within the conditions specified in the contract. Most contracts have a clause called force majeure, which is basically "acts of god" so anything that is considered outside of the OEM's control so something like a government ban would probably fall under that which would void most if not all of the contract provisions. Now the OEM can choose to compensate the customer or provide alternatives on voluntary basis to stay in good grace's, which would be the smart move in this case if it were to occur.
 

Maikeru

Captain
Registered Member
Is that what they did for AMAT/KLA/LAM when the servicing ban hit? I recall seeing news that YMTC was complaining about being stuck with a bunch of scrap metal due to the ban and wanted OEM's to buyback but didn't see any further follow-up on whether they got compensation or if there were further actions? And isn't the ASML servicing restrictions still on in the wait and see mode at this moment?

Fro my experience with contracts for capital equipment, the chance of a buyback/compensation for disruptions by the OEM are slim to none unless they are returning it due to warranty or within the conditions specified in the contract. Most contracts have a clause called force majeure, which is basically "acts of god" so anything that is considered outside of the OEM's control so something like a government ban would probably fall under that which would void most if not all of the contract provisions. Now the OEM can choose to compensate the customer or provide alternatives on voluntary basis to stay in good grace's, which would be the smart move in this case if it were to occur.
If sanctions were a real possibility at the time of sale then the buyers should at least tried to have excluded them from force majeure provisions.
 

tonyget

Senior Member
Registered Member
From my understanding,the fabs in Russia are operating in full capacity at the moment. Apparently they have been cut off from any kind of assistance from equipment manufactures,so OEM support is something convenient but not necessary. There are plenty of third party agencies do equipment refurbish/repair work,especially for older equipments. Compatible parts and components also available on the market.

So losing official after sells support won't turn the machine into scrap metal,it just make fabs life uneasy and costs more
 

tonyget

Senior Member
Registered Member
so now that we established that BAW filter is important. How many can they support? Well, doesn't work like I thought.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Looks like a 5G phone would need over 70 filters (BAW or SAW types) for different bands that it needs to be able to accept for 2G, 3G, 4G, 5G, blue tooth, different wifi bands, GPS & other GNSS. This is vs maybe half that for 4G phones. So just BAW filter alone, you might need 30 of them for the higher bands that BAW filters are more optimized for. Here is a chart of which band to use BAW vs TC-SAW vs conventional SAW. Basically, BAW makes sense from 1.5GHz to 6GHz
361935.png

361929.png

Just as I estimated. Each 5G phone require $12 of filters

360618.png

For SAW filter. Each 4-inch wafer has 5000 SAW filter. Each wafer is 300RMB. China's SAW market is 15.5B SAW worth about 930M RMB in 2019

360615.png

In 2019, there were probably 600 million mobile phones sold by Chinese phone makers? Each phone needed about 25-30 SAW filter?

Looks like in the past Huawei have already invested in firms producing SAW filters. Including one that produces 50million a quarter
360628.png

But still major ground to make up
the inadequacy of domestic production can be seen here

Just 660m produced in 2019 when the need was 15.5B

But what about BAW
if they get to 2k 8-inch wpm, how many can they produce.
Well according to this Akoustis page

So 150k 6-inch wafer produces 5B BAW filters, which works out to 33.333k filters/6-inch wafer. Using 8-inch wafer having 80% surface area than 6-inch, this works out to 60k filters/8-inch wafer.

2k 8-inch wafers -> 120million filters. If each 5G phone requires 30 BAW -> 4 million phones, if 40 BAW -> 3 million phones. I still need to research here.

Rofsmicro(天津诺思) has been producing BAW filters since 10 years ago,in case you are unaware of it.
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member

Hangzhou's new policy promotes the high-quality development of the new material industry, and photoresists and third-generation semiconductors are designated as key points​


In the field of advanced semiconductor materials, focus on the development of silicon-based, germanium-based and other first-generation semiconductors, large-scale gallium arsenide and indium phosphide single crystals and epitaxial wafers and other second-generation semiconductors, silicon carbide and epitaxial wafers, gallium-based oxygen ( Third-generation semiconductors such as nitrides and epitaxial wafers, aluminum oxide (nitride), photoresists, developers, ultra-clean and high-purity reagents, electronic gases, functional polymer materials and other semiconductor supporting materials.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member

SIRUI intelligently supplies Innosec, and ALD equipment supports the production expansion of 8-inch GaN-on-Si wafers​


Qingdao Sifang Sirui Intelligent Technology Co., Ltd. (hereinafter referred to as "SIRI Intelligent") announced that Sirui Intelligent (July) signed a new ALD equipment procurement agreement with Innosec protocol. According to the agreement, SIRUI will supply Innosec with the Transform series of mass-production ALD deposition and coating equipment used in the front-end process of GaN semiconductor wafer manufacturing to support its 8-inch GaN-on-Si wafer production line expansion.

It is reported that, as a general-purpose technology, the ALD coating process can significantly improve the performance of gallium nitride power devices. For example, ALD films can be used for high-quality gate dielectric stacks, which help to improve device breakdown voltage, Leakage suppression and water and oxygen repellent effect. SIRUI Intelligent Transform series mass-production ALD deposition and coating equipment supports the configuration of multiple ALD process modules, compatible with thermal and plasma functions, and can be upgraded to cope with growing production capacity and new applications. Currently, it has entered Europe, North America, Well-known manufacturers in Japan, mainland China and Taiwan have achieved repeat orders.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Is that what they did for AMAT/KLA/LAM when the servicing ban hit? I recall seeing news that YMTC was complaining about being stuck with a bunch of scrap metal due to the ban and wanted OEM's to buyback but didn't see any further follow-up on whether they got compensation or if there were further actions? And isn't the ASML servicing restrictions still on in the wait and see mode at this moment?

Fro my experience with contracts for capital equipment, the chance of a buyback/compensation for disruptions by the OEM are slim to none unless they are returning it due to warranty or within the conditions specified in the contract. Most contracts have a clause called force majeure, which is basically "acts of god" so anything that is considered outside of the OEM's control so something like a government ban would probably fall under that which would void most if not all of the contract provisions. Now the OEM can choose to compensate the customer or provide alternatives on voluntary basis to stay in good grace's, which would be the smart move in this case if it were to occur.
you can buy AMAT parts on Ebay including things like 300 mm vacuum grade wafer chucks.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

if you don't like Ebay parts, you can hire these guys to refurbish your AMAT tools and even upgrade them i.e. from 90's computers to actually working with modern ones and trashed chambers with cleaned ones.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

if there is a service that makes money, Chinese people are in it.

if they don't want to buy back that's fine, the courts can just void their IP and grant anyone the capability to 3rd party service them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top