Chinese semiconductor industry

FriedButter said:

Same ones that was previously reported.

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ahhh, not really a news then , just the same news reported over and over and over again

Any havoc updates recently? Or are we just waiting for the verification work to finish at this point?

antiterror13 said:

ahhh, not really a news then , just the same news reported over and over and over again

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Because the news isn't the sanctions.

The Dutch government is planning to publish new export controls that will restrict more of

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’s chipmaking machines from being sent to China as soon as next week, according to people familiar with the matter.

The measures, which the government previously pledged to publish before the summer, won’t mention China or ASML but are designed to restrict the shipments of three models of the company’s machines to the Asian country,

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. Lawmakers crafted the export-control regulation as a blueprint that can be used by other European Union member states and aim to publish it as soon as June 30 or in the first week of July, people familiar with the situation said, asking not to be identified because the plans aren’t public.

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The news is that the official text will be published soon.

tokenanalyst said:

The thing with Nvidia is not exactly their GPUs per se but the Nvidia software ecosystem. Baidu like google use their own processors to train their models, like google, Baidu has developed a probably pretty good hardware-software ecosystem but is only used internally. Other Chinese AI companies don't have the resources to create the own complete hardware-software ecosystem so they have to rely on other companies for that. Chinese GPUs companies as Nvidia CEO stated are creating impressive GPUs hardware, specially this company called Biren, but they lack in the software ecosystem and easy to use. The software ecosystem and easy to use compute standards is something Chinese GPUs companies need to work hard, if they expect their hardware to reach wider audiences.​

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I kind of see Chinese GPU companies with regards to the software ecosystem as similar to where AMD was in terms of its GPU's back in the 2010s. They were more or less par in terms of raw power, but at least in terms of general purpose GPU scenarios such as gaming (the one I am familiar with) AMD's drivers and software in general just did not squeeze enough performance compared to Nvidia. Today for stuff like gaming it is mostly interchangeable, I think Nvidia still has the edge but for 99% of users the performance is comparable. So I think Chinese GPU makers will take similar steps as they learn and integrate more uses, users and partners into their ecosystem.

Boltzmann said:

Any havoc updates recently? Or are we just waiting for the verification work to finish at this point?

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Verification for domestic 28nm and 14nm are finished, what the Chinese are doing now is to scale up the production of the equipment. What is under verification is the 7nm process equipment and materials BUT info from our esteem members @WTAN ,@Oldschool, @tokenanalyst and @olalavn, going from 14nm to 7nm is much easier than the huge jump from 28nm planar to 14nm Finfet, since they use the same equipment with some minor modification and adjustment.

ansy1968 said:

Verification for domestic 28nm and 14nm are finished, what the Chinese are doing now is to scale up the production of the equipment. What is under verification is the 7nm process equipment and materials BUT info from our esteem members @WTAN ,@Oldschool, @tokenanalyst and @olalavn, going from 14nm to 7nm is much easier than the huge jump from 28nm planar to 14nm Finfet, since they use the same equipment with some minor modification and adjustment.

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Source? The last time he updated was when it was verifying with 55nm?

pbd456 said:

Source? The last time he updated was when it was verifying with 55nm?

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Is Global times and Tom's Hardware credible enough? circa 2020.

Chinese firm to deliver 28nm chip manufacturing machine in 2021-2022: reports​

Source:Global Times Published: 2020/6/7 17:13:40

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File photo: A visitor watches a Shanghai Micro Electronics Equipment (Group) Co display of how a lithography machine works on November 8, 2013.
Shanghai Micro Electronics Equipment (Group) Co (SMEE) will deliver the first domestic 28nm lithography machine between 2021 to 2022, helping narrowing the gap with the world's chip-making technology, industry websites said.

The move is a leapfrog breakthrough for China's semiconductor industry, according to domestic technology website mydrivers.com. Industry website icsmart.cn also reported it is good news for China's semiconductor industry chain.

The US crackdowns on ZTE and Huawei awakened Chinese companies to explore self-developed lithography equipment, which has underscored the urgency and significance of China to develop advanced chip making ability in a bid to avoid being squeezed by the US amid an escalating tech war.

Xiang Ligang, a veteran industry analyst, told the Global Times on Sunday that once SMEE has the ability to deliver 28nm lithography equipment, it will have the opportunity to move forward to 14nm and 7nm lithography equipment, noting that the breakthrough helps the company "accumulate experience" to manufacture high-end chip-making equipment.

The whole world could take part in the chip-making industry instead of a particular country or particular company, so progress by any single company is valuable, Xiang noted.

Founded in 2002, SMEE is one of the advanced lithography machine makers in China and accounts for about 80 percent of the domestic market share, industry websites said.

Lithography machines are one of the core pieces of equipment in chip manufacturing. Netherlands-based chip equipment maker Advanced Semiconductor Material Lithography (ASML) remained a global leader in churning out high-end lithography machines, followed by Nikon and Cano.

Liu Kun, a Beijing-based semiconductor industry analyst noted that even if the core component of the 28nm lithography equipment may not be made in China, it would be a breakthrough for the Chinese company to package such equipment.

It may take three to five years for companies like Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corporation (SMIC) to make the 28nm equipment by itself and there is still a long way to go, but Chinese companies are ramping up efforts, according to Liu.

Global Times





Dec 6, 2020 — Shanghai Micro Electronic Equipment (SMEE) is reportedly on track to deliver its second-gen deep ultraviolet (DUV) lithography scanner by ...

I'm not trying to be a smart aleck BUT I've been following this thread since its inception, the DUVL story is finally finished (SMEE 28NM DUVL), its been an epic journey and an emotional one for me. Now this short pause is causing me some anxiety as I await for the sequel (EUVL) coming soon in 2025 which I know will be a blockbuster....lol

paiemon said:

I kind of see Chinese GPU companies with regards to the software ecosystem as similar to where AMD was in terms of its GPU's back in the 2010s. They were more or less par in terms of raw power, but at least in terms of general purpose GPU scenarios such as gaming (the one I am familiar with) AMD's drivers and software in general just did not squeeze enough performance compared to Nvidia. Today for stuff like gaming it is mostly interchangeable, I think Nvidia still has the edge but for 99% of users the performance is comparable. So I think Chinese GPU makers will take similar steps as they learn and integrate more uses, users and partners into their ecosystem.

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I have to dig up where I got the information from but the number of ascend developers have grown from under 100k in 2020 to 1.5 million now. I think all because Huawei came out with ascend 910 back in 2019. And since it was far and away the most competitive domestic GPU back then, all the developers gravitated to it and now ascend has dominant position in all the smart city projects.

So it is incorrect to say that all Chinese GPU makers are like AMD imo.

ansy1968 said:

Verification for domestic 28nm and 14nm are finished, what the Chinese are doing now is to scale up the production of the equipment. What is under verification is the 7nm process equipment and materials BUT info from our esteem members @WTAN ,@Oldschool, @tokenanalyst and @olalavn, going from 14nm to 7nm is much easier than the huge jump from 28nm planar to 14nm Finfet, since they use the same equipment with some minor modification and adjustment.

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Slow down....

This is all going to take time. I think any de Americanized 14nm line in smsc will take some time to be fully tested and validated and brought up to par in yields and such. We should hold no illusion to that.

Again, I expect a test line set up this year but much of the expansion will probably happen next year

tphuang said:

Slow down....

This is all going to take time. I think any de Americanized 14nm line in smsc will take some time to be fully tested and validated and brought up to par in yields and such. We should hold no illusion to that.

Again, I expect a test line set up this year but much of the expansion will probably happen next year

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Correct sir just as @olalavn predicted.