Chinese semiconductor industry

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PopularScience

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SMIC is on the "simple" entity list, while Huawei is on the "strong" FDP rule entity list.

SMIC cannot buy US stuff, but Huawei cannot buy practically any stuff (US and not-US) without a license from US. It was the banning of TSMC that crippled Huawei, more than any ban on US firms.

If SMIC sells to Huawei, then it's a frontal attack to US, the US's preferred battlefield, and US for sure 100% will retaliate, giving to SMIC the same treatment of Huawei.

My very personal opinion is that a business-rules-driven company would not sell to Huawei just out of their independent decision, because it would not make business sense: there is a very long list of potential Chinese customers for the very limited SMIC's 14nm capacity, no reason to pick the most dangerous one and expose itself to US heavy retaliation.

My very personal opinion is that if SMIC will sell to Huawei, it is not only out of business logic, but is also a strategic / national security decision...but companies alone, independently and by their own judgment, don't operate according to strategic / national security targets.
SMIC is state controlled. China will retaliate.
 

tonyget

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On KLA’s latest earnings call, Bren Higgins, chief financial officer, said the clarification would create “some incremental opportunities to support some of the older-generation memory devices in China”. He said the additional sales would be more than $200mn.
Would this be CXMT or some other Chinese fab?

“CXMT is about eight years behind Micron,” said a semiconductor consultant in China who declined to be named

I would say it's about right,back in 2015 Micron already produce what CXMT is producing today

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Chinese chipmaker plans listing after clearing US export controls​

A leading Chinese chipmaker is going ahead with a listing in Shanghai that will fund major expansion, after receiving confirmation from US chip toolmakers that they can supply its new production lines.

After months of uncertainty, ChangXin Memory Technologies has been told the chipmaking equipment it needs will not be subject to US export controls, according to three people with direct knowledge of the matter.

CXMT was founded seven years ago and is one of
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’s biggest DRam memory-chip makers. It is also the only one capable of producing them at a miniaturisation level below 20 billionths of a metre. CXMT plans to use American equipment that can make less sophisticated chips for phones, servers and electric vehicles, bypassing the tightened requirements for exports of advanced chip tools.

The company was one of several Chinese chipmakers forced to put expansion plans for fabrication plants on hold after the US introduced its
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on October 7 last year. Another larger Chinese memory-chip maker, Yangtze Memory Technologies, has since found workarounds to resume capital spending. Now CXMT, based in the eastern province of Anhui, is stretching its goals for growth in 2023.

“CXMT has set a very ambitious expansion target this year, even despite the memory chip downturn,” said one person with knowledge of the situation, adding that its annual capital expenditure would increase by about $4bn in 2023 as it boosted purchases of chipmaking equipment.

“CXMT plans to turn to more Chinese equipment suppliers for the expansion, so the capital expenditure can be raised by $5bn or even more. Testing the relatively immature domestic equipment requires additional cash,” said another person familiar with the situation.

To fund this, it plans an initial public offering on Shanghai’s tech-heavy Star board and is in discussions with at least two possible underwriters for the listing, including Chinese bank CICC, according to three people with knowledge of the matter. The listing plans are still in their early stages, so the size and timeline of the IPO have not been determined, one banker said.
CXMT and CICC did not respond to requests for comments.

CXMT’s current valuation is well above Rmb100bn ($14.5bn), based on its technology assets and chip production capacity, said one banker close to the company. That would be well in excess of a valuation of about Rmb72bn after a fundraising round in December, according to another person close to CXMT. Current investors in its holding-company parent Innotron Memory include Alibaba, a fund controlled by smartphone maker Xiaomi and the
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— the National Integrated Circuit Industry Investment Fund.

The sources for its new American equipment have not been revealed, but Lam Research and KLA, two of the biggest US tool manufacturers for chipmakers, recently said the US government had issued a “clarification” that enabled them to increase sales in China this year. They said the clarification meant they could sell equipment which they previously were concerned might be barred under the October 7 export controls.

Doug Bettinger, Lam’s chief financial officer, said on a recent earnings call that the increase would be worth “a few hundred million dollars”.

On KLA’s latest earnings call, Bren Higgins, chief financial officer, said the clarification would create “some incremental opportunities to support some of the older-generation memory devices in China”. He said the additional sales would be more than $200mn.
Neither company provided any detail about which Chinese company would account for the additional sales. But one person familiar with the situation said the “clarification” would enable them to sell tools to CXMT.

Another person said the commerce department “clarification” did not change the parameters of the October 7 controls, but outlined the correct method that companies should use to calculate the nanometre level of their customers’ chips.

China feels less vulnerable about its access to memory chips, which are commoditised products dominated by non-US vendors. In April, regulators
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of US memory-chip maker Micron’s technology, a move widely seen as Beijing’s first retaliatory action against Washington’s measures to prevent China from developing leading-edge chips.

Industry experts said the investigation would prompt Micron’s Chinese customers to find alternative suppliers, but CXMT’s products were not ready replacements.

“CXMT is about eight years behind Micron,” said a semiconductor consultant in China who declined to be named. “It is four generations behind Micron and has no clear path to catching up.”
 
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tphuang

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Looks like DJI is picking up a lot of OPPO's chip design engineers after OPPO shut that unit down. They want to develop their own ISP image processing unit. which similar to OPPO's MariSilicon X.

Who knows, maybe DJI can finally use Chinese supply chain in its drones.
 

tphuang

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Rumour on Huawei Kunpeng 930. Hyper threading. > 3.0GHz. 14 nm. Big upgrade on self developed Taishan microarchitecture.

2023年鲲鹏 930 即将发布,主频有望提升到 3.0GHz 以上。2023 年华为有望 发布下一代芯片鲲鹏 930。鲲鹏 930/930s(服务器版/PC 版)有望支持超线程(多线程) 机制,14nm工艺,自研 TaiShan 微架构大升级,主频将提升到 3.0GHz 以上, 单核性能有望达到 SPEC int 2006(GCC)37~38 分左右。鲲鹏计算产业是基于鲲鹏处理器构建的全栈 IT 基础设施、行业应用及服务,包括 PC、服务器、存储、操作系统、中间件、虚拟化、数据库、云服务、行业应用以及 咨询管理服务等。目前鲲鹏体系已经不同程度地应用于政府、金融和运营商等多个 主要行业。

This sounds like just not even plausible. You are not getting to single core performance of 37 to 38 score on 14nm process. Just not going to happen. Let's put it this way, Apple M1 with an octa-core CPU can generate about 75 specint 2006 based on that recent Loongson comment about 3A6000. And that's using 5nm process.

I mean it's pretty clear Kunpeng-930 should be using an early 7nm process. Even Huawei whisper confirmed that SMIC can do 8 to 10 nm (which is basically what the current SMIC 7nm is). If SMIC is capable of that and producing Kunpeng-920, why would 930 go back in time? It doesn't even make any sense.

Important landmark for SMIC. Finally he could produce complicated CPU (Kunpeng 930 and Phytium S5000c) more than 3 GHz.
Really not a landmark.


Let's think a little bit about the current HW needs for advanced process
Ascend GPUs - (maybe 20 to 40 per wafer) - need maybe 50000 -> need to be 7nm
Kunpeng CPUs - (varies depending on if you get desktop version of server version, could range from 4 to 64 cores) - need maybe 1 million server CPUs as well as 5 million desktop
Balong chips - (hundreds per wafer) - need 10 million now and probably 50 to 100 million eventually -> need to be 7nm
TianGang chips - need probably millions -> can probably used stacked 14nm here
Kirin A2 - need many millions for wearables, anything small -> probably need to be 7nm due to the size constraint
Kirin SoC for phones/pads - eventually will need probably 100 million a yr -> can start of with stacked 14nm as Huawei Whisper suggested but need to be stacked 7nm by 2025

Even if they need 10 million Kirin SoC this year for lower end phones. Let's just do some math for 12nm process with two chiplets. Each die will be around 10mm x 10mm. Can fit maybe 13 to 14 per radius -> 450 to 500 per wafer accounting for not perfect yield
you are looking at at best 250 SoC per wafer -> 40k wafers in total.

At some point, if they loose access to Qualcomm chips and still need 100 million for phones/pads, we'd need 400k wafers per year

That's a lot since SMIC is probably at 15k wpm right now based on my calculations.

So if you are Chinese gov't, you are probably going to move heaven & earth to try ramp that SMIC advanced node production to 50k a yr so can exit this need for QCOM product
 

tokenanalyst

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if I were Qualcomm, I'd be on the first plane to China right now to explain to the Chinese govt how I'm not providing a backdoor.
If prove that they were collecting China citizens user data and send it outside of China, they could be heftily fined.

But if they were collecting private data in the West, well you know how drill goes, the mainstream media will say nothing, politicians will do nothing, Western national security think tankers will brand anyone who talk about this news as conspiracy theorists, Kremlin puppets, somehow they will manage to blame Xi Jinping for it and whataboutism.

Chinese IT products are subject to a higher security standards than those in the West, Huawei was subject to a higher scrutiny without basically substantive evidence and if this was Unisoc Bloomberg would be running "exclusive" articles for weeks with their ninja journalists and citing their anonymous sources.
 

tokenanalyst

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Topmi Technology's USD 200 million memory product packaging and testing project settled in Lishui

According to the official Weibo news of Lishui Economic Development Zone, on May 16, the 24th China Zhejiang Investment and Trade Fair "Invest in Zhejiang" summit forum organized a signing ceremony for major foreign investment projects. At the meeting, Lishui Economic and Technological Development Zone successfully signed a contract for the packaging and testing of Memory storage products and the research institute project of Dingmi Technology.

It is reported that the project plans to invest a total of 200 million US dollars. After reaching the production capacity, it can form an annual production capacity of 1 billion integrated circuit chips, and it is expected to achieve an annual output value of 2 billion yuan.
Zeng Fanrong, vice president of Dingmi Technology, said that after the completion of the project, the company plans to introduce high-end engineers and advanced technologies from Malaysia, and train a group of high-end talents in the field of memory products for the project company and the Lishui semiconductor industry.

According to public information, Hong Kong Dingmi Technology Group Co., Ltd. is an enterprise in the field of semiconductor chips integrating chip design, software and firmware research and development, packaging testing, manufacturing and application. It has the world's leading chip packaging, testing and modern module factories. Form a complete supply chain ecosystem.

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tokenanalyst

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Youyan New Materials: High-end model target products can meet the requirements of 7nm process​


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The sales volume of target materials has increased significantly, and high-end models can meet the requirements of 7nm process

As the largest manufacturer of high-purity metal sputtering targets in China, Youyan New Material is a backbone enterprise in my country's non-ferrous metal new material industry. The main business is divided into four major segments: electricity, magnetism, optics, and medicine. The electrical segment mainly includes integrated circuit targets, precious metals, etc., the magnetic segment includes magnetic materials and magnets, rare earth metals, etc., and the optical segment includes special infrared optics. , luminescent materials and other businesses, and the medical sector includes biomedical materials and oral instruments and other businesses.

As a veteran in the domestic materials industry, Youyan New Material's revenue in 2021 will exceed 16.059 billion yuan. Under the impact of the severe domestic and foreign environment in 2022, the overall performance is still remarkable. The 2022 annual report shows that the annual operating income is 15.254 billion yuan, a slight decrease from 2021, and the total profit is 328 million yuan, an increase of 11% from the previous year, and 103% of the annual budget target value has been completed.

From the perspective of revenue ratio, electronic new materials accounted for the largest proportion and contributed the most, especially the target business of researched new materials has become one of the highlights. Specifically, target sales increased by 44% year-on-year, of which 8-12 inch targets accounted for 75%; the supply of copper series targets has increased in an all-round way, and CuAl and CuMn high-end target products have gradually become the most important copper-based targets for customers supplier.

The substantial increase in sales of target materials is inseparable from the long-term investment and accumulation of researched new materials. During the reporting period, in terms of new product research and development, the large-scale ultra-high-purity copper alloy targets used in advanced integrated circuit manufacturing processes of Youyan New Materials passed the verification and batch supply of world-class integrated circuit companies, and the tantalum targets, cobalt targets, and nickel-platinum targets all Breakthroughs have been made, among which 12-inch tantalum targets have successively passed the verification of well-known customers, realizing domestic substitution; cobalt and nickel-platinum targets are supplied in batches in many 12-inch integrated circuit factories, and high-end models can meet the key material requirements for 7nm; tungsten for advanced storage And tungsten alloy target development is progressing smoothly, aluminum scandium and other special alloy targets maintain a leading position in the country.

Ultra-high-purity metal sputtering targets are the core key materials in chip production and preparation. Driven by the development of my country's integrated circuit manufacturing industry, the domestic target market demand continues to expand. Sputtering target manufacturers represented by companies such as Honeywell (USA), Nippon Mining Metal (Japan), and Tosoh (Japan) have set foot in this field earlier, and the global target market presents an oligopolistic competition pattern. With the maturity of domestic ultra-high-purity metal sputtering target technology, coupled with the policy orientation of localization and the cost-effective advantages of domestic sputtering targets, domestic target-related companies are showing a strong rise.

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BlackWindMnt

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If prove that they were collecting China citizens user data and send it outside of China, they could be heftily fined.

But if they were collecting private data in the West, well you know how drill goes, the mainstream media will say nothing, politicians will do nothing, Western national security think tankers will brand anyone who talk about this news as conspiracy theorists, Kremlin puppets, somehow they will manage to blame Xi Jinping for it and whataboutism.

Chinese IT products are subject to a higher security standards than those in the West, Huawei was subject to a higher scrutiny without basically substantive evidence and if this was Unisoc Bloomberg would be running "exclusive" articles for weeks with their ninja journalists and citing their anonymous sources.
Like i always thought not even hardware is safe in this day and age and people are still talking about end 2 end encryption what use does it have when both ends of the pipe are reading and sending data to state agencies.
 

theorlonator

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SMIC is on the "simple" entity list, while Huawei is on the "strong" FDP rule entity list.

SMIC cannot buy US stuff, but Huawei cannot buy practically any stuff (US and not-US) without a license from US. It was the banning of TSMC that crippled Huawei, more than any ban on US firms.

If SMIC sells to Huawei, then it's a frontal attack to US, the US's preferred battlefield, and US for sure 100% will retaliate, giving to SMIC the same treatment of Huawei.

My very personal opinion is that a business-rules-driven company would not sell to Huawei just out of their independent decision, because it would not make business sense: there is a very long list of potential Chinese customers for the very limited SMIC's 14nm capacity, no reason to pick the most dangerous one and expose itself to US heavy retaliation.

My very personal opinion is that if SMIC will sell to Huawei, it is not only out of business logic, but is also a strategic / national security decision...but companies alone, independently and by their own judgment, don't operate according to strategic / national security targets.
It hurts Huawei more because US machines are installed at TSMC to fab for Huawei. It'd be a little weird to do the FDPR on SMIC, especially if they're going to use non US equipment.
 
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