Chinese semiconductor industry

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tphuang

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Chongqing AI Innovation center has been put to use, using HW's Ascend GPUs w/ equivalent AI computation to half million PCs
IT之家查询发现,重庆人工智能创新中心是“东数西算”国家一体化大数据中心成渝枢纽节点的样板工程,项目投资 11.8 亿元,项目一期占地约 10 亩,由算力平台、软件平台和配套机房组成,包括数据中心、展厅、开关站共 3 栋建筑,建筑面积超 5000 平方米,算力规模可达 400P,计算速度达到每秒 40 亿亿次,广泛应用于人工智能算法的训练和推理,吸引了包括中冶赛迪、长安、特斯联、重庆大学、重庆邮电大学等 29 家算力使用单位,对外提供超 320P 的算力规模,利用率约 85%。
so this is 400PFLOPS of computation as part of China's 东数西算 project

400 PFLOPS linking back to here Chinese semiconductor industry
is about 156 AI training servers of 8x Ascend-910 GPU
8 x 320 TFLOPS per Ascend-910 = 2560 TFLOPS per AI training server. 400k / 2560 is about 156

Will use Ascend's mindspore framework & Atlas 500 smart ministatin
 

european_guy

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Chinese supply chain is re-shuffling

This is a very deep and long-term process that is at the base of current and future China semiconductor localization and growth. It is the fuel that allows China IC to grow and overcome US blockades.

US cannot block it, actually any push for decoupling will only foster it even more. A smart US (like SIA and industry guys) would have aimed at keeping their dominant position in China semi market. An ideological and blindly raging US (like Washington think tank guys) instead went exactly the other way...
 

tphuang

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This is a very deep and long-term process that is at the base of current and future China semiconductor localization and growth. It is the fuel that allows China IC to grow and overcome US blockades.

US cannot block it, actually any push for decoupling will only foster it even more. A smart US (like SIA and industry guys) would have aimed at keeping their dominant position in China semi market. An ideological and blindly raging US (like Washington think tank guys) instead went exactly the other way...

Right, all part what I would call supply chain security to move away from unreliable foreign suppliers. On the call, they specifically talked about Chinese chip design houses making advances with new designs that are now winning market share in Chinese supply chain. That fundamentally hurts not only the Western fabless studios & IDMs but also TSMC & Samsung.

@hvpc might know about this, but I wonder what % of 28/40nm chips in Chinese supply chain are not fabbed in China or fabbed in China by TSMC. I would guess a pretty large chunk. IIRC, TSMC has a 40k wpm fab in Nanjing.
 

hvpc

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This is a very deep and long-term process that is at the base of current and future China semiconductor localization and growth. It is the fuel that allows China IC to grow and overcome US blockades.

US cannot block it, actually any push for decoupling will only foster it even more. A smart US (like SIA and industry guys) would have aimed at keeping their dominant position in China semi market. An ideological and blindly raging US (like Washington think tank guys) instead went exactly the other way...
I would say your last statement could be a bit subjective. Most on this forum and those in China will probably agree with you that the latest American back fired and is fueling the growth of Chinese semiconductor industry. On the other hand, those you called "think tank guys" are also happy the sanction is working as they intended, which is to stunt and slow China's attempt at catching up to the leading edge nodes.

And again, those here would down play the significance of not having access to 3nm today, 2nm in 2025, 1.4nm in 2027. And the western expert would argue otherwise. So perhaps this is a "win-win" for both sides?? Both sides could claim victory on achieving what both sides think is important.
Right, all part what I would call supply chain security to move away from unreliable foreign suppliers. On the call, they specifically talked about Chinese chip design houses making advances with new designs that are now winning market share in Chinese supply chain. That fundamentally hurts not only the Western fabless studios & IDMs but also TSMC & Samsung.

@hvpc might know about this, but I wonder what % of 28/40nm chips in Chinese supply chain are not fabbed in China or fabbed in China by TSMC. I would guess a pretty large chunk. IIRC, TSMC has a 40k wpm fab in Nanjing.
At the moment, tsmc & UMC's fab in China do have the majority of actual 28nm wafer output (65K wpm). There's also huge amount of 28nm capacity available outside of China; quite bit of those 28nm chips do end-up in Chinese industry & consumer's hands. Up to 1Q23, SMIC's 28nm actual output has been not very significant. But I am happy to hear SMIC announce during their investor call they have finally qualified new fabless guys that are trying to roll out new innovative products in the established non-leading edge market and the partnership is resulting in the fabless guys claiming marke tshare from the incumbent western-bloc fabless guys. As these fabless guys rush to roll-out new innovations, SMIC is surely to be rewarded rushed wafer orders with higher profit margin.

From the sound of things, SMIC also expects more new fabless guys to enter the picture and SMIC will then have themselves group of solid partners to utilize the large wafer capacity expansion planned for the next five years. The bifurcation of Chinese fabless/SMIC vs. the "western" fabless/foundry will, I'm sure, bring forth more innovation and competition in the mature node, specialty application segments. Competition is a good thing for the industry and the consumers, as well as for the Chinese semiconductor ecosystem. China may not have access to leading edge in the short term, but establishig a solid presence in the "mature" nodes is still a big technological step-up for China. Exciting times ahead.
 

tphuang

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I would say your last statement could be a bit subjective. Most on this forum and those in China will probably agree with you that the latest American back fired and is fueling the growth of Chinese semiconductor industry. On the other hand, those you called "think tank guys" are also happy the sanction is working as they intended, which is to stunt and slow China's attempt at catching up to the leading edge nodes.

And again, those here would down play the significance of not having access to 3nm today, 2nm in 2025, 1.4nm in 2027. And the western expert would argue otherwise. So perhaps this is a "win-win" for both sides?? Both sides could claim victory on achieving what both sides think is important.
The Western experts claimed Chinese semiconductor industry was going to collapse. So, I really doubt not having access to 1.4nm in 2027 is what they will cheer on as victory. I also think a few of us are expecting them to commercialize EUV by 2027

At the moment, tsmc & UMC's fab in China do have the majority of actual 28nm wafer output (65K wpm). There's also huge amount of 28nm capacity available outside of China; quite bit of those 28nm chips do end-up in Chinese industry & consumer's hands. Up to 1Q23, SMIC's 28nm actual output has been not very significant. But I am happy to hear SMIC announce during their investor call they have finally qualified new fabless guys that are trying to roll out new innovative products in the established non-leading edge market and the partnership is resulting in the fabless guys claiming marke tshare from the incumbent western-bloc fabless guys. As these fabless guys rush to roll-out new innovations, SMIC is surely to be rewarded rushed wafer orders with higher profit margin.

From the sound of things, SMIC also expects more new fabless guys to enter the picture and SMIC will then have themselves group of solid partners to utilize the large wafer capacity expansion planned for the next five years. The bifurcation of Chinese fabless/SMIC vs. the "western" fabless/foundry will, I'm sure, bring forth more innovation and competition in the mature node, specialty application segments. Competition is a good thing for the industry and the consumers, as well as for the Chinese semiconductor ecosystem. China may not have access to leading edge in the short term, but establishig a solid presence in the "mature" nodes is still a big technological step-up for China. Exciting times ahead.
That is way more 28nm capacity from Taiwanese chipmakers in China than I thought. Thanks for the info. Does that capacity include 40 to 55nm also? Cause I would be shocked if Chinese chipmakers have a large market share in their own 40 to 55nm segment (even among its own fabless guys). SMIC is just adding large amount of capacity now and same with HH & Cansemi. So they likely are still developing products in this 28 to 55nm segment to meet customer requirements.
 
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kentchang

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Chongqing AI Innovation center has been put to use, using HW's Ascend GPUs w/ equivalent AI computation to half million PCs

so this is 400PFLOPS of computation as part of China's 东数西算 project

400 PFLOPS linking back to here Chinese semiconductor industry
is about 156 AI training servers of 8x Ascend-910 GPU
8 x 320 TFLOPS per Ascend-910 = 2560 TFLOPS per AI training server. 400k / 2560 is about 156

Will use Ascend's mindspore framework & Atlas 500 smart ministatin
Since AI is specifically mentioned, the 400P may refer to FP32 or mixed precisions, not FP64.
 

tphuang

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Since AI is specifically mentioned, the 400P may refer to FP32 or mixed precisions, not FP64.
I think it's referring to FP16 here. This would match citic securities research numbers.

note here
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AI processor delivers 320 TFLOPS@FP16 and 640 TOPS@INT8 of compute performance with just 310 W of max power consumption
so TOPS -> INT8
TFLOPS -> FP16
 

gelgoog

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HLMC also has 28nm. They have been developing a FinFET process for years but supposedly they are not manufacturing it yet.
Several Zhaoxin CPUs use HLMC 28nm process.

Right now there are 3 foundries in China with 28nm process. SMIC, HLMC (subsidiary of Hua Hong), and TSMC. More have plans to enter that segment but none have entered production yet.
 

siegecrossbow

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Read from a Chinese recruitment forum that Oppo terminated Zeke because they were on the verge of success and their hire ups were threatened by US gov since it would eat into Qualcomm’s profit. Oppo is not as diverse as Huawei and if their phones get sanctioned it is pretty much game over for them. The running out of funding thing is just an excuse.

Luckily all the Zeke engineers will get snatched up by other firms, one of which is DJI, who is not scared because they already are on the blacklist.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

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Read from a Chinese recruitment forum that Oppo terminated Zelenskyy because they were on the verge of success and their hire ups were threatened by US gov since it would eat into Qualcomm’s profit. Oppo is not as diverse as Huawei and if their phones get sanctioned it is pretty much game over for them. The running out of funding thing is just an excuse.

Luckily all the Zeke engineers will get snatched up by other firms, one of which is DJI, who is not scared because they already are on the blacklist.
are they at least going to sell their IP?
 
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