Chinese semiconductor industry

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weig2000

Captain
If we look at 2022 financial results of Chinese SME, we can see many of them, including the biggest ones, achieved >50% revenue increase, and Q1 2023 has started great.

This was unbelievable just few years ago and would had never been possible without the US threats. This gives the measure of how much short-sighted US policy is.

Since the 2018 Huawei ban under Trump, and continuation of the same policy by Biden administration (because neocons ruled US foreign policy then, and rule it even more now because current president just reads prepared scripts), US has literally enabled a diverse, healthy and strong Chinese SME market out of thin air. Well done US hawks! Chinese government would not have been able to do better.

The US has long complained about China's industrial policy. The irony is that the US sanctions have become a much more effective semiconductor industrial policy ..... for China. Chinese government has announced and implemented a series of policies and regulations to promote and develop semiconductor industry since 2000. The direct results were lackluster; much of China's progress in the industry since then have been accomplished by the market and private companies (Huawei, SMIC, etc.). One of the biggest reasons is that Chinese companies preferred to work with more established international companies, for good reasons. Again, Huawei and SMIC were quite representative here.

The US sanctions are now existential threat to Chinese companies in the semiconductor industry and the broader IT industry, forcing them to work with each other. To be sure, there are and will be short-term setbacks, delays and cancellations, but if you are a long-term observer of Chinese tech industry like me, you know that China will always come through and achieve higher than if there were no sanctions in the longer-term. This is no copium, but backed by numerous precedence. In fact, I would argue that China is probably the only country in the world that can accomplish such and develop and sustain an independent and advanced semiconductor industry. Some argue that Japan currently has the most self-sufficient semiconductor industry. But Japan misses one critical ingredient: market.
 

staplez

New Member
Registered Member
The US has long complained about China's industrial policy. The irony is that the US sanctions have become a much more effective semiconductor industrial policy ..... for China. Chinese government has announced and implemented a series of policies and regulations to promote and develop semiconductor industry since 2000. The direct results were lackluster; much of China's progress in the industry since then have been accomplished by the market and private companies (Huawei, SMIC, etc.). One of the biggest reasons is that Chinese companies preferred to work with more established international companies, for good reasons. Again, Huawei and SMIC were quite representative here.

The US sanctions are now existential threat to Chinese companies in the semiconductor industry and the broader IT industry, forcing them to work with each other. To be sure, there are and will be short-term setbacks, delays and cancellations, but if you are a long-term observer of Chinese tech industry like me, you know that China will always come through and achieve higher than if there were no sanctions in the longer-term. This is no copium, but backed by numerous precedence. In fact, I would argue that China is probably the only country in the world that can accomplish such and develop and sustain an independent and advanced semiconductor industry. Some argue that Japan currently has the most self-sufficient semiconductor industry. But Japan misses one critical ingredient: market.
To illuminate your point, China is the last country standing with a space station. Largely because of the Wolfe act that prevented NASA from working with China.

Or China is now one of the largest producers of nuclear power plants. Another industry that US tried to hamper China from accomplishing.

Nuclear weapons, airplanes, cars, submarines, large ships. The list is extensive and everyone of them failed. It's wild to me, it's so insane, yet here we are, for the hundredth time.
 
D

Deleted member 24525

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The US has long complained about China's industrial policy. The irony is that the US sanctions have become a much more effective semiconductor industrial policy ..... for China. Chinese government has announced and implemented a series of policies and regulations to promote and develop semiconductor industry since 2000. The direct results were lackluster; much of China's progress in the industry since then have been accomplished by the market and private companies (Huawei, SMIC, etc.). One of the biggest reasons is that Chinese companies preferred to work with more established international companies, for good reasons. Again, Huawei and SMIC were quite representative here.

The US sanctions are now existential threat to Chinese companies in the semiconductor industry and the broader IT industry, forcing them to work with each other. To be sure, there are and will be short-term setbacks, delays and cancellations, but if you are a long-term observer of Chinese tech industry like me, you know that China will always come through and achieve higher than if there were no sanctions in the longer-term. This is no copium, but backed by numerous precedence. In fact, I would argue that China is probably the only country in the world that can accomplish such and develop and sustain an independent and advanced semiconductor industry. Some argue that Japan currently has the most self-sufficient semiconductor industry. But Japan misses one critical ingredient: market.
I strongly disagree. Technological progress is cumulative; this means that it is far harder to build a wholly new capability than to improve on an existing one. China's series of semiconductor industrial policies from ~2000 to the start of the trade war were instrumental in helping the country build up a comprehensive domestic supply chain for the tools needed to produce legacy nodes. This took such a long time not because the policies were poorly calibrated, but because the country was starting from scratch. Turbofans had the full backing of the entire military-industrial complex and they took just as long. China has been able to make such rapid progress on semiconductor equipment over the past five years because it already had this basic foundation in place from 20 years of prior industrial policy. Were it not for this policy, the country would have been in a vastly weaker position when the American campaign started. Western pundits looked at how long it took China to build this foundation and concluded that the country stood no chance in the face of the US export controls. They did this because none of them had actually bothered to study technological history, and so are predisposed to think that rapid progress in technological competence is something that just falls out of the sky rather than being dependent on decades of prior painstaking trial and error. It's no wonder then how bewildered they are when it turns out that China actually can produce domestic substitutes for banned equipment.
 

horse

Colonel
Registered Member
the problem of the chemical industry - particularly fine chemicals - is always finding customers, not production. you can produce even the most complex materials at large scale given energy, raw materials and money. The problem is getting sophisticated customers to buy it because there's no marketing tricks with fabs or refineries, they're all SMEs.

The same old barrier to entry, another concept from economics! Ugh!

It is a complete shit show this American tech war against China. They want to fight this war with total ignorance.

1) they don't understand the tech, and that China has mastered mature nodes production of chips, which creating some mild panic

2) they don't understand the business and the supply chain, take China out of that supply chain and that is a hole that will not be filled

3) even the most basic economic concepts they fail as they really have no clue - given the capital cost and the know how required, the barriers to entry to the chip industrial is sky high to impossible

Let's say the tech war started in 2020. The actions of the American government will achieve the opposite effect, there is a 50% chance of that happening in 5 years, and a 100% chance of that happening in 10 years, as China already today is moving on.
 

bzhong05

New Member
Registered Member
Even Chinese semiconductor industry's most famous doomsayer, Leslie Wu, gave a new prediction just several days ago that China could reach 100% self-sufficiency in 28nm in 3 years... last time he said very bluntly that it would take 5-7 years.

the article has since then been deleted but I managed to find a version in the hidden corners of the internet:
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tonyget

Senior Member
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Even Chinese semiconductor industry's most famous doomsayer, Leslie Wu, gave a new prediction just several days ago that China could reach 100% self-sufficiency in 28nm in 3 years... last time he said very bluntly that it would take 5-7 years.

the article has since then been deleted but I managed to find a version in the hidden corners of the internet:
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There is one thing I agree with him,is that there needs to be more transparency in the industry. At the moment there is full of rumors regarding Chinese semiconductor industry floating around ,and some are capitalizing on this.

But the US desperately wanted to sell as many as possible Westinghouse AP1000 3rd Gen+ nuclear reactor to China. In fact China is the only country to have operational AP1000 reactors for years now since 2018, 4 of them. The other 2 are under construction in the US
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But China now has more advanced nuclear reactor designs, 100% Chinese IP. The most advanced one is
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I have to say that China now has the most advanced reactor design in the world ... up there together with France and possibly the US

This is a semiconductor thread,not nuclear tech thread
 

Michael90

Junior Member
Registered Member
It's so funny for me to watch these "news" doing stupid takes 6 months ago saying YMTC is not going to last 3 weeks and now saying that YMTC is going to benefit from Micron's demise in China
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What do you expect to happen?

yeah, YMTC can sell it so much cheaper than Samsung. In fact, it has gone below even 500 RMB! And as I documented, a long list of Chinese SSD brands using their product. The key issue here is that YMTC needs to ramp up production

Funnily enough, this was predicted almost 2 years ago by Dylan patel of all people
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No idea if they still have 64-layer production and how high their 128-layer yield is, but I hope those get addressed in this next year, so that when they are ready to ramp up fab 2, they can quickly increase market share

btw, Intel continues to be a super disaster
but US senators want to stop selling chips to Chinese cloud providers? have fun Intel
Yes, unfortunately, US officials and political establishment have lost the ball when it comes to seeing things in a rational way for self interests.. The US has now marked China as a real credible long term threat and in this regard US département of state said they are willing to take economic losses in their quest to stop China. So China better be ready for this since its gonna be so for a long time to come. Nothing is off limits or off the table anymore..
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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There is one thing I agree with him,is that there needs to be more transparency in the industry. At the moment there is full of rumors regarding Chinese semiconductor industry floating around ,and some are capitalizing on this.

I'm not sure who can capitalize on rumours and a lack of transparency in a way that would be detrimental to the Chinese semiconductor industry -- if anything a lack of transparency (aka a high degree of secrecy) should be beneficial to the Chinese semiconductor industry as it means that other hostile actors would not have up to date or accurate information on the industry and be unable to develop more targeted actions and sanctions that could have more material adverse outcomes.

This is similar to the Chinese military's development -- the less information that an adversary has, and the less time they have to respond to it, the more materially significant the catchup in technology and industry and capabilities are.


In fact I can't think of any competitive situation where having an information asymmetry is not an advantage.
 

european_guy

Junior Member
Registered Member
Even Chinese semiconductor industry's most famous doomsayer, Leslie Wu, gave a new prediction just several days ago that China could reach 100% self-sufficiency in 28nm in 3 years... last time he said very bluntly that it would take 5-7 years.

the article has since then been deleted but I managed to find a version in the hidden corners of the internet:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Thanks, interesting reading. He listed many Chinese firms across the all the semiconductor ecosystem. Some of them new to me.

Regarding consumable materials, I see the only critical link remaining is Arf photoresist. All the other materials, including wafers, special and bulk gases, sputtering targets, etc have been more or less localized at this point for 28nm node, and we are in a volume ramp up phase.

Regarding Arf photoresist the local technological leader, according to havoc, seems to be Sinyang that is in validation / volume ramp up phase.

The time window for US to damage China current IC production (not future developments) shrinks by the day. Moreover US alone does not control any critical material, this is a huge plus for China. IMHO 2023 will be the last year when a possible Japan ban of materials could seriously affect Chinese current IC production....but I'm very dubious Japan really dares to cripple ongoing production of SMIC and friends, even if US orders them to do it. The retaliation of China would be long lasting and painful...and Japan is not US, they don't have the power to bully China at their wish.
 
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