Chinese semiconductor industry

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FriedButter

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Next year. 2024. They would announce something about EUV, and they probably announce it together with some sort of DUV accomplishment. That is my estimation.

I doubt they would publicly announce anything related to EUV. At least not anytime soon. The client base is already secured now that everyone is cooperating with each other and the state. There isn’t any reason to say anything since it doesn’t really benefit them either way now that marketing is irrelevant.
 

horse

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From this post -
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由于国内现在只做不说,低调,所以很多公开的咨询公司的调查报告基本全部失真,比如说国内光刻胶厂商市占率只有1%,其余全部是外资,这是不对的。同理还有长江存储市占率只有6%,上海微电子前道GKJ市占率为0,这些都不准确。以上微为例,它的90nm GKJ已经量产且批量供货,干式arf duv gkj也量产且批量供货,由于这些机型的热销甚至导致原产线饱和,上微甚至要在今年扩产新增年产20台arfi duv gkj产线专供arfi gkj。目前所有接受上微前道gkj的单位都不得公开宣传,导致很多带节奏的文章仍然认为有且仅有1台90样机放在角落里吃灰。

Apparently, the original poster said that many industry reports do not reflect reality such as the market share of domestic photoresist companies constituting just 1%, YMTC has 6% market share or SMEE having 0% marketshare. They also claimed that SMEE has realized full production capacity and would even increase production this year to 20 ArFI DUV machines. All companies receiving SMEE machines are prohibited from publicizing the info so people still assume there is only one obsolete 90nm machine.

How legit is this info based on what havok had previously said?

It's the trade data.

Last year China imports of foreign chips declined for the first time in 30 years or something like that.

Then some rumours that the first two months of this year, the imports of foreign chips saw a steep decline.

Well, the economy is growing. Production is up. Are they using less chips? If they are using less chips, production should be down. What is the fully story, we do not know. It is a state secret.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
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The decline in chip imports is easy to explain. After the huge demand of consumer electronics during the lockdown, the industry will have to endure a long dry spell where few sales will happen, this has been hitting the bottom line of every major chip vendor. They are all cutting production, trimming down personnel, etc. The dry spell might continue for several years. As things are today the desktop sector and the smartphone sector are also pretty much mature, people have little reason to upgrade.

I will give you some concrete examples. I bought a new computer recently. I have it stored and am still using the old one I bought 6 years ago just fine. The stupid graphics card I got is barely better than my older one and the drivers suck. I do not advise anyone to buy Intel Arc GPU like I did. You are better off with AMD. The rest is pretty much a vast upgrade. I am waiting for better drivers to show up for the hardware I bought before I use it. I had to return one major component because it was not suitable, I ordered a new component to replace it, and the new component was $150 cheaper, despite being more capable, and this after only 2-3 weeks since I bought it. The prices are collapsing all the time. The SSD I bought for example had almost 50% discount on it. I should have bought my computer 6 months from now, should have been cheaper by then, but I have been expecting the semiconductor trade war to heat up, I want to buy my computer now, before anything happens which disrupts supply. I doubt anything major will happen, but who knows. The Japanese not selling photoresist to YMTC is just one example of the problems which might happen. If China counters, all it takes is some small delays on shipping equipment for whatever reason, or the Chinese government decides to do a neon gas export embargo in cooperation with Russia, then semiconductor supplies will go down the toilet. The industry is way more fragile than people realize.
 
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horse

Colonel
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I doubt they would publicly announce anything related to EUV. At least not anytime soon. The client base is already secured now that everyone is cooperating with each other and the state. There isn’t any reason to say anything since it doesn’t really benefit them either way now that marketing is irrelevant.

There is nothing left to ban.

This is still a fight, so once in a while got to show some teeth, and bite back hard.

It's still kind of funny. They banned everything, and the United States is not satisfied and still want to ban some more.

It's still business. Got to display some real confidence too. If it is there, then that should be known.

Thing is, if the CCP announces they got EUV, like how they did with a one liner statement that they built the 5G standalone is such and such a city, no one believes it in the outside world.

I remember reading those statements from China. It was like 20-30 characters, and all it said was the 5G was complete, did not even confirm if it was standalone. We had to assume it was. No one in the west would report it. To this day, no one in the west reports about it other that David Goldman at the AsiaTimes.com newspapers.

After Xi's speech, I think gloves are off, they they wearing brass knuckles.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
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They can ban exports of semiconductor supplies like the photoresist, of support and parts for the tools, etc. There are loads of things they can ban. Most countries import photoresist from Japan, and a lot of countries import masks and mask materials as well. Japan is way more crucial than the US is in this fight, but unfortunately Japan decided to cave in. They are being idiots since the Japanese tool vendors have been on a downwards slide for many years already, and this was the perfect opportunity for them to cash in. At the same time the US keeps trying to destroy what semiconductor industry Japan has left, already Western Digital is part owner of one of their memory vendors, and US corporate vultures have attacked the rest. The Japanese also own ARM, the US corporation NVIDIA tried to buy it off them, and the US industry has been trying to kill ARM for years because they cannot control it themselves properly. That is one of the reasons why RISC-V has been gaining traction.
 
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CMP

Senior Member
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They can ban exports of semiconductor supplies like the photoresist, of support and parts for the tools, etc. There are loads of things they can ban. Most countries import photoresist from Japan, and a lot of countries import masks and mask materials as well. Japan is way more crucial than the US is in this fight, but unfortunately Japan decided to cave in. They are being idiots since the Japanese tool vendors have been on a downwards slide for many years already, and this was the perfect opportunity for them to cash in. At the same time the US keeps trying to destroy what semiconductor industry Japan has left, already Western Digital is part owner of one of their memory vendors, and US corporate vultures have attacked the rest. The Japanese also own ARM, the US corporation NVIDIA tried to buy it off them, and the US industry has been trying to kill ARM for years because they cannot control it themselves properly. That is one of the reasons why RISC-V has been gaining traction.
It's a cuck nation ruled by neutered compradors. That's why NTR is a thing in Japan.
 

Weaasel

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btw, rumors going pretty strong now that YMTC got cut off from its KRF photoresist suppliers.

Good thing Shanghai Sinyang has validated with YMTCs 128 layer process since 2021 and has been producing photoresist from them since second half of 2021 and delivering to them this year
View attachment 108692
Looks like according to this, they have also started producing Arf photoresist, but only got orders at end of last year.
View attachment 108693
Looks like they've been working with 北方集成电路技术创新中心, why is SMNC wholly owned subsidiary (
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) built a Arf photoresist verification platform back in 2021 and has been validating since.

It seems like they are preparing this for start of SMIC Jingcheng fab and their Arf product will be usable for 90 to 14nm and even 7nm process.
View attachment 108694
It's a good thing that China has been prepared for years with regards to photoresists. The progress over the last few years obviously was built on work that began in earnest years earlier, and it doesn't look as though China's did so in anticipation of the extent of hostility it has faced from the Trump and Biden Administrations. Chinese companies are not as extremely vulnerable as Samsung and other South Korean companies are/were when Japan decided to undertake restrictions on sales of photoresists and other key materials utilized to make IC chips.
 

Weaasel

Senior Member
Registered Member
They really can't, because SMEE cannot produce that many scanners. Foreign scanners are needed for the time being whether we like it or not. There is a ramp up required for production.

It doesn't seem like you know what you are talking about. The economics of industrial chips simply do not work once you get above 28nm. That's why SMIC is so massively increasing its 28 to 90nm production.

As for other stuff, Huawei's phone business has not died. Please stop fear mongering and making stuff up.

From what I can figure out, Arf is basically ready at Sinyang. There is a long validation process, but they have already started producing it. If YMTC really gets cut off from ARF photoresist, Sinyang can probably supply them. Worst case scenario is that yield is terrible for a while.

The bigger concern is capacity. They are talking about a 3rd 500t photoresist factory. Fine, but is that going to be enough to supply all of China's advanced process? Let's be optimistic and say Sinyang have 1500t of capacity by 2024 & other companies have 500t. And let's say they don't have to worry about iLine being cut off. Even if we are being generous and say they will have 500t of Krf and 500t of Arf, that still will barely cover need of YMTC, CXMT & SMSC fabs (or maybe not even).

I don't know if they need parity anytime soon. If they can reliably produce 5 to 7 nm chips with what they have (even if at lower yield), that's going to be enough. More advanced process improves power consumption, but Huawei phone can still be competitive if its battery life is a little shorter.

I do think EUV prototype is needed sooner than that, since they need one to test stuff like photoresist and work with our processes.
The question is do any combination of Siyang, Nanta Opto, or any other Chinese company have the ability to produce ArFi photoresists that can go into the most sophisticated DUV lithography machines, and do so without relying on any inputs of equipment and materials sourced from US allies or other countries that the US is very likely able to bully to prevent such material and equipment supplies to China? If Siyang and co can do so, even though presently the demand is met predominantly by Japanese and other US aligned suppliers, then with time the production can be ramped up to COMPLETELY replace foreign suppliers and meet the demand for photoresists domestically... Sure it is a set back now, but not a devastating one as long as China has domestic alternatives as far as quality capability is concerned.
 
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