Chinese semiconductor industry

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luminary

Senior Member
Registered Member
ansy1968 said:
Yup and what symbolism it create, a Chinese company that fought back, survive and thrive against all odd battling a superpower...lol That is a definition of what a hero should be. :cool:

Bro I hear a song coming so let's sing it together....

"Huawei"

And now, the end is near
And so I face the final curtain
My friend, I'll say it clear
I'll state my case, of which I'm certain
I've lived a life that's full
I traveled each and every highway
And more, much more than this, I did it Huawei

Regrets, I've had a few
But then again, too few to mention
I did what I had to do
And saw it through without exemption
I planned each charted course
Each careful step along the byway
And more, much more than this, I did it Huawei

Yes, there were times, I'm sure you knew
When I bit off more than I could chew
But through it all, when there was doubt
I ate it up and spit it out
I faced it all and I stood tall and did it Huawei

I've loved, I've laughed and cried
I've had my fill, my share of losing
And now, as tears subside
I find it all so amusing
To think I did all that
And may I say, not in a shy way
Oh, no, oh, no, not me, I did it Huawei

For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself, then he has naught
To say the things he truly feels
And not the words of one who kneels
The record shows
I took the blows
And did it Huawei

Yes, it was Huawei...........
Click to expand...
:D


Verse 1:
Huawei, a name that rings true
Innovation at the forefront, always pushing through
From smartphones to 5G, they're leading the charge
Their technology, always on the large

Chorus:
Huawei, Huawei
The future is bright, the future is new
Huawei, Huawei
The world is yours, the world is true

Verse 2:
From China they hail, but their reach knows no bounds
In every corner of the globe, they can be found
Their devices, always reliable and true
Connecting us all, and bringing us to you

Chorus:
Huawei, Huawei
The future is bright, the future is new
Huawei, Huawei
The world is yours, the world is true

Bridge:
Some may say the road ahead is rough
But Huawei's vision is clear, it's never enough
They keep pushing forward, always on the rise
Their determination, it never dies

Chorus:
Huawei, Huawei
The future is bright, the future is new
Huawei, Huawei
The world is yours, the world is true
 
PopularScience

PopularScience

Junior Member
Registered Member
I reread Havok post:

1. DUVi won't be mass produce until June next year at the earliest.
2. DUVi need to produce IC in small batch at actual production line to satisfy mass production criteria.
3. DUV dry will be mass produce before DUVi.
4. 6KHz immersion light source was successful developed this year.
 
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pbd456

Junior Member
Registered Member
PopularScience said:
I reread Havok post:

1. DUVi won't be mass produce until June next year at the earliest.
2. DUVi need to produce IC in small batch at actual production line to satisfy mass production criteria.
3. DUV dry will be mass produce before DUVi.
4. 6KHz immersion light source was successful developed this year.
Click to expand...
What does it mean by DUVi need to produce IC in small batch? If it is in small batch, how could IC be mass produce?


6kHz Arf light source is not necessary 60w, right?
 
tphuang

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
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I just deleted a few WarAndPeace posts + responses. Please keep in mind that if you see low quality posts that are completely off mark, you can report them. This thread is actively moderated!

Also, @ansy1968 cut out the Huawei fan club stuff here. This is not the thread for it. I will let it go this time, but we are here to discuss Semiconductors, not Huawei.

When we pollute thread with irrelevant stuff, we miss posts like this!
PopularScience said:
I reread Havok post:

1. DUVi won't be mass produce until June next year at the earliest.
2. DUVi need to produce IC in small batch at actual production line to satisfy mass production criteria.
3. DUV dry will be mass produce before DUVi.
4. 6KHz immersion light source was successful developed this year.
Click to expand...
This would seem very significant.
I would imagine that any SMEE DUVi machines would be used in plants to test out process before they can ramp up production. IIRC, trying out new machine/process takes at a year? @tokenanalyst ? The slow mass production of DUVi is a little disappointing, but that would match the progress of the Guowang's new plant. Even if they can just get DUV dry into mass production, it would be what they need for 95% of China's fabs. They should be taking enough ASML DUVi deliveries over the next few months to cover their needs for 1 or 2 years.
 
A

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
tphuang said:
This would seem very significant.
I would imagine that any SMEE DUVi machines would be used in plants to test out process before they can ramp up production. IIRC, trying out new machine/process takes at a year? @tokenanalyst ? The slow mass production of DUVi is a little disappointing, but that would match the progress of the Guowang's new plant. Even if they can just get DUV dry into mass production, it would be what they need for 95% of China's fabs. They should be taking enough ASML DUVi deliveries over the next few months to cover their needs for 1 or 2 years.
Click to expand...


"Manufacturing a finished chip for a customer can take up to 26 weeks. Here’s why: manufacturing a finished semiconductor wafer, known as the cycle time, takes about 12 weeks on average but can take up to 14-20 weeks for advanced processes. To perfect the fabrication process of a chip to ramp-up production yields and volumes takes even much more time – around 24 weeks."

semiconductors.org/chipmakers-are-ramping-up-production-to-address-semiconductor-shortage-heres-why-that-takes-time

---
So you normally need a few cycles to work out the kinks and the best way of doing things
 
PopularScience

PopularScience

Junior Member
Registered Member
tphuang said:
I just deleted a few WarAndPeace posts + responses. Please keep in mind that if you see low quality posts that are completely off mark, you can report them. This thread is actively moderated!

Also, @ansy1968 cut out the Huawei fan club stuff here. This is not the thread for it. I will let it go this time, but we are here to discuss Semiconductors, not Huawei.

When we pollute thread with irrelevant stuff, we miss posts like this!

This would seem very significant.
I would imagine that any SMEE DUVi machines would be used in plants to test out process before they can ramp up production. IIRC, trying out new machine/process takes at a year? @tokenanalyst ? The slow mass production of DUVi is a little disappointing, but that would match the progress of the Guowang's new plant. Even if they can just get DUV dry into mass production, it would be what they need for 95% of China's fabs. They should be taking enough ASML DUVi deliveries over the next few months to cover their needs for 1 or 2 years.
Click to expand...

A good analogy is c919. After certified by authority, the plane need to be tested by airline.

Anyway, havok mentioned dry machine was late by 3 years, and immersion one was late by 2 years
 
A

Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
HereToSeePics said:
2. It's not just about the machine themselves, but you need a vast supply chain and tech tree to feed all the upstream and down stream processes to operate, produce, package and utilize the chips - examples such as ultra high purity gases, ultra clean water, silicon ingot production, wafer slicing, chemical handling, etc (and this is barely scratching the surface), all require highly specialized ancillary industries before you can even turn on an EUV machine.
Click to expand...
It is true for all industry, to run on profit any industry require lot of specialised businesses, creating hard and long to master specific compontents.

Even if we talk about food making or eninge piston manufacturing or deep well drill manufacturing.

No need to mistify it, it is the same learning curve like everywhere else. Takes time and resources to master it , and a reason to do it .

Semiconductor is the same, if a player mastered the making of one IC then anyone else has to spend similar sum to master the same process, to enter a market where the first mover easly can undercut him and still making profit. And the second mover bear an unsustainable cost burden.

So , requirement of market entry is closed /protected market by external competition, huge sum from coming from somewhere, or both.
 
FairAndUnbiased

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
tphuang said:
This would seem very significant.
I would imagine that any SMEE DUVi machines would be used in plants to test out process before they can ramp up production. IIRC, trying out new machine/process takes at a year? @tokenanalyst ? The slow mass production of DUVi is a little disappointing, but that would match the progress of the Guowang's new plant. Even if they can just get DUV dry into mass production, it would be what they need for 95% of China's fabs. They should be taking enough ASML DUVi deliveries over the next few months to cover their needs for 1 or 2 years.
Click to expand...
65 nm capable dual stage dry ArF like the ASML TwinScan XT1040K would be sufficient for almost all analog, MCU, power, RF, display driver, etc component that China would ever need. The big challenge for immersion is the entire ecosystem around it has to change, since now you not only need ArF resist, but you need a nonreactive nonleaching hydrophobic resist or alternatively a DUV transparent nonleaching nonreactive hydrophobic topcoat that does not dissolve into the resist (not even a little). This adds significant RD burden.

A dual stage dry ArF system can be used with double patterning to produce 45 nm, and in fact Intel introduced double patterning dry ArF for their 45 nm process, only moving to immersion in their 32 nm products. I imagine with aggressive multipatterning, dry ArF would be sufficient for 28 nm with lower yields, though this is just a guess.

The other thing is, modern 45/65 nm isn't just about die shrinks. Since that time there were many new materials and processes introduced, like high-k gate dielectric (instead of gate oxide), metal gate (instead of Si gate), ppb grade materials, full molecular contaminant control, etc. So you can get way better performance with modern 45/65 nm than you can with old school 45/65 nm at the same cost.
 
FairAndUnbiased

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
As for how valuable a dual stage dry ArF would be?

49636850-16485499195652504_origin.jpg

For TSMC, useless, because it targets the 40-90 nm market, which makes up 15% market share. For SMIC, extremely necessary, because these segments make up 60% of their market.

In addition, a dry ArF dual stage would be validating many technologies that will go into a 7-14 nm capable immersion dual stage.
 
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