Chinese semiconductor industry

Status
Not open for further replies.

Topazchen

Junior Member
Registered Member
I agree, these US companies should never have been allowed to monopolize the Chinese market, knowing the risk that export controls represented, too much trust was given to these companies and too much decision-making power was given to foreign managers in the direction of the industry, but also the government was blind to the idea of making chips no matter how.

A smaller industry but more localized and secured against outside interference from these lunatics. An industry that will not only grow horizontally but also vertically where all sectors grow in unison rather than having few sectors growing but dependent of untrusted tools and other sectors stagnated. The localization of the industry rather just making a lot of chips with borrowed tools, It would have been a better goal.
You need to be cognizant of the level of development China was at that time and cut her some slack. At 4,000 per capita you have more pressing needs than KLA and Cadence dominating your market. The resources you can throw at a problem are limited.

The only way to prevent those companies monopolizing the Chinese market would have been to ban them and because there were no local alternatives, it would have meant a China that is lagging behind by a decade or two
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
The Loongson 3A6000 PC processor has been designed and it is expected to launch in the first half of 2023
This sounds impressive enough. Two 256-bit vector processing units and 4 ALUs. So it should be quad-issue. If you want to know about it AMD only added 256-bit vector units with Zen 4. Intel has had it for longer though. This should put Loongson architecturally on par with most other desktop and low end server architectures. It remains to be seen how well it will perform on practice though.

The only thing missing from this to make it a real heavy duty server processor is multiple tiles i.e. chiplets, wider memory buses, and things like that. Thing is support for MIPS or LoongArch compilation in general on most projects is kind of iffy. Most people just buy either X86 or ARM.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
Well SMIC seems confident and Yes they do acknowledge the headwinds like all great company do BUT they see their future bright as they planned to confront those challenges and beat their rivals. Their Capex increase do serve a purpose to serve the huge Chinese Market and the ROW, comparing with Intel, TSMC and Samsung and others to whom their increase capacity serve? the less than Golden Billion with tight financial resource to buy any of their expensive products. ;)

@tphuang Sir Liang Mong Song 5nm N+3 is doing well and we may see it tape out this year base on the table provided by @alb:cool:

1_b.jpg


Credit: DIGITIMES

China's largest chip foundry, Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp (SMIC) expressed pessimism about the possibility of a business turnaround in the near term during its third-quarter 2022 earnings conference call, but emphasized that it remains optimistic over the medium- to long-term development.

It noted that its expansion plans remain unchanged, and its talent retention and equipment acquisition have been able to keep up with the pace of capacity expansion.
Although the new US export rule prohibits US persons (including Chinese with US citizenship or residency) from assisting the development of advanced semiconductor technology in China (especially companies on the Entity List), SMIC co-CEO Zhao Haijun said its talent reserve is at the best condition of all time, as the COVID-pandemic has lowered employee turnover while new graduates showed strong motivation in joining the semiconductor industry.

"Many university graduates with bachelor's and master's degrees are eager to join us," said Zhao, "We took in many good quality new recruits, and talent source is sufficient. The total number of our headcount last year was 15,000-16,000, and this year so far we have exceeded 20,000."

Liang Mong Song, the former TSMC R&D executive who helped Samsung build up its foundry, remains the co-CEO at SMIC, despite the US restrictions. "Although SMIC has not admitted that it has mass-produced 7nm chips, it is true the team led by Liang developed and produced it with immersion DUV. They did not copy the design of TSMC," an industry expert who has been closely monitoring the semiconductor industry in Taiwan and China for more than two decades told DIGITIMES. "SMIC has started to develop 5nm chips, but the challenge has become even greater after the new US export control rules."

SMIC is aiming to increase 340,000 units of 12-inch wafer equivalent in monthly capacity in the next 5-7 years in new production line projects at five subsidiaries. Capital expenditure has been raised from US$5 billion to US$6.6 billion for the entire 2022, but it does not include the Tianjin Fab, mainly due to the company's needs to prepay for the equipment that sees long lead times before delivery, according to SMIC statement.

Compared to GlobalFoundries (GF), which has recently confirmed that it will initiate layoffs and a hiring freeze, SMIC is still prioritizing production expansion. SMIC is trying to secure equipment with long lead time in order to ensure capacity expansion is carried out on schedule.

Zhao stressed that the five subsidiaries will differentiate from each other in terms of product portfolio, focusing on specialty memory, CMOS image sensors, panel driver IC, power management ICs and others respectively, so that there will not be overlapping on equipment procurement.

"This cyclical downturn was not caused by oversupply but the drastic slowdown on the demand side," said Zhao, who emphasized that new innovations, social trends, and macroeconomic recovery will drive the demand in the future. "When we build a fab, it is for the operation of at least the next 20 years, and hence we will not change the plan just because this year is a downcycle in the semiconductor industry... We are doing capacity expansion according to the pace of our technology development roadmap and product planning of our customers."

SMIC indicated that the inventory of smartphones and consumer electronics is still being digested slowly, and customers show little interest in carrying out design tape-out and starting trial production. As smartphones, smart home and consumer electronics account for more than 60% of SMIC's revenues, the latest cyclical downturn in consumer demand has taken a heavy toll on the Chinese foundry house.

Headwinds in macro environment​

According to Zhao, since the second half of 2022, the macroeconomic environment has been characterized by weak consumer demand, global energy crisis brought about by international conflicts, high inflation, currency fluctuations and other factors, resulting in a sluggish economic recovery.

Despite the pessimism, there are still some bright spots. "Demand from industrial control applications is relatively stable, but the growth is limited. Automotive is resilient in terms of end demand and consumption, and demands still outstrip industry capacities," said Zhao. "The demand for Internet of Things (IoT) for wearables, local area network (LAN) applications, and power grid automation are seeing robust growth of 20-30% in revenues sequentially."

Zhao stressed that since this cycle is overlaid with multiple complex external factors such as new export control rules imposed by the US that are bringing challenges to the global and regional supply chains, the adjustments may take a long time and the downward cycle of the foundry industry has not yet bottomed out. "We will adopt a dynamic approach to adjust customers, product portfolio, and capacity."

"While demand declined externally and internally, and with annual maintenance conducted on some fabs, the monthly capacity increased by 32,000 8-inch equivalent wafers, but capacity utilization was down five percentage points from the previous quarter to 92.1%," said company press release.

The US restrictions on advanced chip tech export to China and SMIC's inclusion in the Entity List have boosted SMIC's reliance on its domestic market. The Chinese mainland and Hong Kong contributed 70% of SMIC's third-quarter 2022 revenues, up from 66.7% a year ago.

SMIC said it is still assessing the impact of the new rules imposed by the US on October 7. It said it has maintained close communication with suppliers, and is trying to clarify "some definitions in the new rules." According to the foundry house's current interpretation of the new US regulations, SMIC's customers are in full compliance with the US government's requirements in terms of production capacity and technology nodes. But some customers still need some time to gauge the new US regulations, and SMIC continues to communicate with both sides, it said.

Zhao's latest statement was gloomier than his previous one made three months ago, where he predicted that the cycle adjustment would continue until at least the first half of 2023. Now, Zhao pointed out that the combination of macroeconomic trends and the rate of inventory depletion "has not yet shown any signs of recovery." The company expects its fourth-quarter 2022 revenue to decrease by 13-15% sequentially, and gross margin to range between 30% and 32%, down from 38.9% in the third quarter. Inventories increased 17.2% from the second quarter, reaching US$1.7 billion.

www.digitimes.com

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

China's largest chip foundry, Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp (SMIC) expressed pessimism about the possibility of a business turnaround in the near term during its third-quarter 2022 earnings conference call, but emphasized that it remains optimistic over the medium- to long-term...
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 
Last edited:

tonyget

Senior Member
Registered Member
U.S. official: YMTC may be added to U.S. trade blacklist next month

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

美国官员:长江存储可能下个月被列入美国贸易黑名单

11月14日,据路透社报道,美国商务部官员在表示,中国存储芯片制造商长江存储和其他数十家中国实体“有可能”最早在12月6日被列入贸易黑名单。

今年10月7日,美国政府将31家中国公司、研究机构和其他团体列入所谓“未经核实的名单”,限制它们获得受监管的美国半导体技术的能力。

据悉,新限制措施针对在中国的两种芯片制造商,一种是生产在系统使用时保存来自应用程序信息的DRAM芯片,另一种是生产用于数据和文件存储的NAND闪存芯片。美国供应商若向中国本土芯片制造商出售尖端生产设备,生产18纳米或以下的DRAM芯片、128层或以上的NAND闪存芯片、14纳米或以下的逻辑芯片,必须申请许可证并将受到严格审查。

在限制包括长江存储在内的中国公司获得芯片制造工具的同时,美国仍允许韩国存储芯片制造商三星电子和SK海力士公司为其在中国的业务获得设备。

U.S. official: Yangtze River storage may be added to U.S. trade blacklist next month

On November 14, according to Reuters, U.S. Commerce Department officials said that Chinese memory chip maker Yangtze Memory Technologies and dozens of other Chinese entities are "likely" to be placed on a trade blacklist as early as December 6.

On October 7 this year, the U.S. government placed 31 Chinese companies, research institutes and other groups on a so-called "unverified list" that restricts their ability to access regulated U.S. semiconductor technology.

The new restrictions target two chip makers in China, one that makes DRAM chips that hold information from applications while the system is in use, and the other that makes NAND flash memory chips that are used for data and file storage. U.S. suppliers who sell cutting-edge production equipment to local Chinese chipmakers to produce DRAM chips of 18nm or below, NAND flash chips of 128 layers or above, and logic chips of 14nm or below must apply for a license and will be subject to strict scrutiny .

While restricting Chinese companies, including YMTC, from getting chip-making tools, the U.S. has allowed South Korean memory chip makers Samsung Electronics Co. and SK Hynix Co to acquire equipment for their operations in China.
 

paiemon

Junior Member
Registered Member
Chinese government eliminated import tariff on foreign semi-equipment,as part of incentive measure to boost domestic semiconductor production,since last year. That tells you about government‘s perception on foreign equipment.
Well, if your goal is to accelerate development of the IC industry as fast as possible and domestic equipment is still scaling up, are you going to leave opportunities on the table just because the equipment is foreign? They were going to buy that foreign equipment tariff or not so why would you charge yourself extra taxes that go back to the government who is supporting said industry? The goal right now is not to raise barriers to foreign competition (foreign politicians do a better of that than tariffs), it's to foster the domestic IC industry and they need all the equipment they can get, regardless of where it is from.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
I want to add from my previous post above

SMIC is aiming to increase 340,000 units of 12-inch wafer equivalent in monthly capacity in the next 5-7 years in new production line projects at five subsidiaries. Capital expenditure has been raised from US$5 billion to US$6.6 billion for the entire 2022, but it does not include the Tianjin Fab, mainly due to the company's needs to prepay for the equipment that sees long lead times before delivery, according to SMIC statement.

Compared to GlobalFoundries (GF), which has recently confirmed that it will initiate layoffs and a hiring freeze, SMIC is still prioritizing production expansion. SMIC is trying to secure equipment with long lead time in order to ensure capacity expansion is carried out on schedule.

My thinking only the Shanghai Lingang, SN1 and SN2 FABS will use ASML equipment exclusively, while their other expansion in Beijing, Tianjin, Chongqing and Shenzhen will be going domestic. Just look at those time timetable for completion, late 2024 to early 2025, By that time SMEE /CETC will be mass producing those immersion DUVL machine like dumplings.;)
 

olalavn

Senior Member
Registered Member
Well SMIC seems confident and Yes they do acknowledge the headwinds like all great company do BUT they see their future bright as they planned to confront those challenges and beat their rivals. Their Capex increase do serve a purpose to serve the huge Chinese Market and the ROW, comparing with Intel, TSMC and Samsung and others to whom their increase capacity serve? the less than Golden Billion with tight financial resource to buy any of their expensive products. ;)

@tphuang Sir Liang Mong Song 5nm N+3 is doing well and we may see it tape out this year base on the table provided by @alb:cool:

1_b.jpg


Credit: DIGITIMES

China's largest chip foundry, Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp (SMIC) expressed pessimism about the possibility of a business turnaround in the near term during its third-quarter 2022 earnings conference call, but emphasized that it remains optimistic over the medium- to long-term development.

It noted that its expansion plans remain unchanged, and its talent retention and equipment acquisition have been able to keep up with the pace of capacity expansion.
Although the new US export rule prohibits US persons (including Chinese with US citizenship or residency) from assisting the development of advanced semiconductor technology in China (especially companies on the Entity List), SMIC co-CEO Zhao Haijun said its talent reserve is at the best condition of all time, as the COVID-pandemic has lowered employee turnover while new graduates showed strong motivation in joining the semiconductor industry.

"Many university graduates with bachelor's and master's degrees are eager to join us," said Zhao, "We took in many good quality new recruits, and talent source is sufficient. The total number of our headcount last year was 15,000-16,000, and this year so far we have exceeded 20,000."

Liang Mong Song, the former TSMC R&D executive who helped Samsung build up its foundry, remains the co-CEO at SMIC, despite the US restrictions. "Although SMIC has not admitted that it has mass-produced 7nm chips, it is true the team led by Liang developed and produced it with immersion DUV. They did not copy the design of TSMC," an industry expert who has been closely monitoring the semiconductor industry in Taiwan and China for more than two decades told DIGITIMES. "SMIC has started to develop 5nm chips, but the challenge has become even greater after the new US export control rules."

SMIC is aiming to increase 340,000 units of 12-inch wafer equivalent in monthly capacity in the next 5-7 years in new production line projects at five subsidiaries. Capital expenditure has been raised from US$5 billion to US$6.6 billion for the entire 2022, but it does not include the Tianjin Fab, mainly due to the company's needs to prepay for the equipment that sees long lead times before delivery, according to SMIC statement.

Compared to GlobalFoundries (GF), which has recently confirmed that it will initiate layoffs and a hiring freeze, SMIC is still prioritizing production expansion. SMIC is trying to secure equipment with long lead time in order to ensure capacity expansion is carried out on schedule.

Zhao stressed that the five subsidiaries will differentiate from each other in terms of product portfolio, focusing on specialty memory, CMOS image sensors, panel driver IC, power management ICs and others respectively, so that there will not be overlapping on equipment procurement.

"This cyclical downturn was not caused by oversupply but the drastic slowdown on the demand side," said Zhao, who emphasized that new innovations, social trends, and macroeconomic recovery will drive the demand in the future. "When we build a fab, it is for the operation of at least the next 20 years, and hence we will not change the plan just because this year is a downcycle in the semiconductor industry... We are doing capacity expansion according to the pace of our technology development roadmap and product planning of our customers."

SMIC indicated that the inventory of smartphones and consumer electronics is still being digested slowly, and customers show little interest in carrying out design tape-out and starting trial production. As smartphones, smart home and consumer electronics account for more than 60% of SMIC's revenues, the latest cyclical downturn in consumer demand has taken a heavy toll on the Chinese foundry house.

Headwinds in macro environment​

According to Zhao, since the second half of 2022, the macroeconomic environment has been characterized by weak consumer demand, global energy crisis brought about by international conflicts, high inflation, currency fluctuations and other factors, resulting in a sluggish economic recovery.

Despite the pessimism, there are still some bright spots. "Demand from industrial control applications is relatively stable, but the growth is limited. Automotive is resilient in terms of end demand and consumption, and demands still outstrip industry capacities," said Zhao. "The demand for Internet of Things (IoT) for wearables, local area network (LAN) applications, and power grid automation are seeing robust growth of 20-30% in revenues sequentially."

Zhao stressed that since this cycle is overlaid with multiple complex external factors such as new export control rules imposed by the US that are bringing challenges to the global and regional supply chains, the adjustments may take a long time and the downward cycle of the foundry industry has not yet bottomed out. "We will adopt a dynamic approach to adjust customers, product portfolio, and capacity."

"While demand declined externally and internally, and with annual maintenance conducted on some fabs, the monthly capacity increased by 32,000 8-inch equivalent wafers, but capacity utilization was down five percentage points from the previous quarter to 92.1%," said company press release.

The US restrictions on advanced chip tech export to China and SMIC's inclusion in the Entity List have boosted SMIC's reliance on its domestic market. The Chinese mainland and Hong Kong contributed 70% of SMIC's third-quarter 2022 revenues, up from 66.7% a year ago.

SMIC said it is still assessing the impact of the new rules imposed by the US on October 7. It said it has maintained close communication with suppliers, and is trying to clarify "some definitions in the new rules." According to the foundry house's current interpretation of the new US regulations, SMIC's customers are in full compliance with the US government's requirements in terms of production capacity and technology nodes. But some customers still need some time to gauge the new US regulations, and SMIC continues to communicate with both sides, it said.

Zhao's latest statement was gloomier than his previous one made three months ago, where he predicted that the cycle adjustment would continue until at least the first half of 2023. Now, Zhao pointed out that the combination of macroeconomic trends and the rate of inventory depletion "has not yet shown any signs of recovery." The company expects its fourth-quarter 2022 revenue to decrease by 13-15% sequentially, and gross margin to range between 30% and 32%, down from 38.9% in the third quarter. Inventories increased 17.2% from the second quarter, reaching US$1.7 billion.

www.digitimes.com

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

China's largest chip foundry, Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp (SMIC) expressed pessimism about the possibility of a business turnaround in the near term during its third-quarter 2022 earnings conference call, but emphasized that it remains optimistic over the medium- to long-term...
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Rumor: it will be in production in late 2024 or mid-2025
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member
You need to be cognizant of the level of development China was at that time and cut her some slack. At 4,000 per capita you have more pressing needs than KLA and Cadence dominating your market. The resources you can throw at a problem are limited.
The Chinese goverment was pretty aware since very early probably since the end of the 90s of this problematic dependency. Because in the early 2000 there was an increase in export controls from the Bush Jr. Administration at the time, more scrutiny. So the Chinese become worry that they may get cut off by the US. They launched especial projects like project 863 and the project 02 to develop the tools in other to deal with that situation, from that project comes companies like AMEC, Naura, Piotech, ACM shanghai, Keystone, UPrecision and others. That is a lot of resources.

in the 2008-2010 the Chinese semiconductor industry started to rise pretty fast and a lot talent from outside started to take over the industry especially in the foundry and design sector, their goal was to make products and therefore money as fast as possible, as they should be under normal market conditions, China developing goals was not in their priority list, obviously they want to use the tools that they knew give the faster results, usually foreign tools, Chinese toolmakers with exception of a few were relegated to survive in niches markets, like Solar, power, packaging and the nascent FPD-LED industry.
The first warning shot was 2015 when ZTE was added to the control list but the Obama administration decided to negotiate with the company, at that moment a some people started to questioned the problematic dependency that China have on foreign tools and IP.

Well even before the ZTE incident there was a lot of naive people in China at the time, including Huawei boss Ren Zhengfei, some though that codependency would serve as a deterrence, that the US goverment barring US companies from selling in China would hurt the US as much as China, so it was seen as a nuclear alternative, not to ever be used. I myself guilty of overestimating that "Nuclear Deterrence". Chinese trade liberals oversold globalization and 100% opening up to this companies, ignoring the geopolitical sh*t-storm that was brewing in the United Stated and gradualists, they were 100% against using domestics tools, saying that country should be reliant on foreign tools and that slow gradual decade long advancement is necessary for Chinese made tools to be usable. The idea of relaying on domestic tools to make chips was laughed at the time, they are not laughing now. I think the Taiwanese model is one the a lot of people in China wanted to follow. Give the quicker results but rely on the total dependency on outside suppliers.

The Chinese goverment didn't acted sooner probably because the sector was performing well, they were making chips. That was one of the goals and a lot of capital was private and they didn't wanted to interfere with that.
The only way to prevent those companies monopolizing the Chinese market would have been to ban them and because there were no local alternatives, it would have meant a China that is lagging behind by a decade or two
i really don't know, I think the period from 2000-2005 was a good opportunity for China to establish good domestic supplier network, most of the Chips produced were trailing edge in 250nm-3000nm nodes range. The China military and space program were able to make 90nm-180nm Chips on their own, so the basic tools and knowledge were there to make companies like AMEC and Naura earlier.
I think they didn't care because with very few exceptions export controls was non a issue, at that time the US goverment was allowing licenses for 130nm process and the Warssenaar was getting less stringent, nerveless I think was a good opportunity.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top