Chinese semiconductor industry

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tphuang

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ASML still sells DUV to China. If lithography machine is the only bottleneck,and all other domestic equipments are up to task for 14nm,that means China already achieved non-American 14nm production line. But I'm skeptical about it,especially regarding testing equipments.
i posted this interview with a Lam employee in charge of their CXMT support
Q:Lam在中芯南方的support团队后面也全撤?但是中芯南方本来也拿不到Lam的设备?
A:对。中芯南方做比较多7nm、14nm。虽然中芯南方拿不到Lam的设备,但还有一小部分人在中芯南方做服务。
According to this person, SMSC does a lot of 7nm/14nm and they cannot obtain Lam equipment. That should tell you everything. SMSC is non-American. It would have expanded a lot faster if it had access to American tools.

The biggest constraint from what I can see is ASML scanners and funding. Since they started getting NXT2050i in H2 2021 and now NXT2100i, they are probably now able to move into more complicated N+1 process now.

You do not take early deliveries of ASML scanners unless you need it in the next couple of years. SMEE scanners should be capable enough for most of their new fabs. The NXT2050i/2100i that they are buying are for expanding SMSC production. The plan was to reach 70k wpm eventually. They simply don't talk about it now, but I think it will expand beyond that. You probably just need about 30 Arfi scanners to produce maybe 20k 14 nm wpm, 50k N+1/N+2 wpm. I think they are buying more than that in quantity.
 

tonyget

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i posted this interview with a Lam employee in charge of their CXMT support

According to this person, SMSC does a lot of 7nm/14nm and they cannot obtain Lam equipment. That should tell you everything. SMSC is non-American. It would have expanded a lot faster if it had access to American tools.

The biggest constraint from what I can see is ASML scanners and funding. Since they started getting NXT2050i in H2 2021 and now NXT2100i, they are probably now able to move into more complicated N+1 process now.

You do not take early deliveries of ASML scanners unless you need it in the next couple of years. SMEE scanners should be capable enough for most of their new fabs. The NXT2050i/2100i that they are buying are for expanding SMSC production. The plan was to reach 70k wpm eventually. They simply don't talk about it now, but I think it will expand beyond that. You probably just need about 30 Arfi scanners to produce maybe 20k 14 nm wpm, 50k N+1/N+2 wpm. I think they are buying more than that in quantity.

This
Q:10月7号之前下的订单还能交付吗?
A:不可以交付,这也是跟之前不一样的地方。之前中芯在禁令前购买的设备是可以move in,现在即使付了钱也不可以交付。预付款会退回去,长鑫只是口头订单,长鑫没有给预付款,长存有一些预付款,但禁令开始长存也不会move in。

Seem to be contradictory with this
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根据新规的保留条款(Savings Clause),新增许可证要求的管制物项只要已经处于装运、发货过程中,那么其出口、再出口或目的地国内转移就可继续进行至11月7日午夜,这一条款相当于为国内晶圆厂留出了一个月的“宽限期”,除了已经采购的设备或零部件加快物流,如果美系设备原厂配合,那么一些现货通过货权的变通处理,同样也可以优先供应国内晶圆厂客户。
对于后一方式,一位美系设备大厂人士向集微网透露,有国内晶圆厂客户“他们采购们前几天是抢购啊,啥都要。确实还有家美国公司,打开仓库让他们进去扫货”。
 

tokenanalyst

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Wanye Enterprise: Jiaxin's first CVD equipment was successfully delivered to customers.​


"1+N" strategy promotes multi-category equipment

1+N? 1 implantation tool + N process tools. for 28nm?


In addition to actively launching boosting measures, Wanye is still constantly creating growth points for its integrated circuit business. As of the end of August 2022, the company's ion implanters of Keystone and multi-category front-end equipment of Jiaxin Semiconductor had orders of nearly 1.1 billion yuan. The business layout of Compart Systems is expected to enter the fast growth lane.
In recent years, various types of ion implanters independently developed by Keystone have passed the verification and acceptance of mainstream 12-inch integrated circuit chip manufacturers. In the first half of 2022, Keystone obtained purchase orders from 3 customers, of which many ion implanter equipment were repeated purchases and batch orders from customers. At present, Keystone ion implanters cover important 28nm technology nodes in China, and batch orders are being delivered gradually, from the stage of 0-1 to the stage of rapid growth of 1-N. Keystone actively expands equipment categories, promotes the development of end-users in an all-round way, strives to obtain more orders and accelerates market application, and further enhances the company's position and influence in the semiconductor equipment industry. Another subsidiary, Jiaxin Semiconductor, has begun to have platform capabilities for various front-end equipment categories, and won the bid for many types of front-end equipment such as etching, thin film deposition and heat treatment from the second half of the year. In October, the first CVD equipment of Jiaxin Caneng, a subsidiary of Jiaxin Semiconductor, was successfully delivered to customers, ushering in an important milestone in industrialization.
Driven by the continuous boom in industry demand and the localization of semiconductor equipment and components, Wanye and its subsidiaries are constantly being recognized by downstream customers for their process technology, industry reputation, product quality and delivery capabilities. In the future, Wanye will seize the opportunity to continuously meet industry development trends and customer needs, strengthen its supporting capabilities with the local industry chain, achieve win-win cooperation, and inject continuous momentum into accelerating the development of the local semiconductor industry.
 

horse

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Nope,they can still buy US equipments,with restrictions,just like Huawei. Huawei is still complying with US rules,did you know that?Huawei refuse to provide Russia new telecom equipments,even as the Russians urge them to,as Nokia and Ericsson left Russia.

No. Things do not work like that in the real world. Also, the part about the Chinese cutting off the Russians ...

Suppose you are selling expensive machinery.

Suppose there is a customer who still wants to buy a machine from you.

You sell them the machine. You ship the machine to them.

The customer receives the shipment and opens up the crate, installs the machine, and finds out there is a part missing.

The customer phones you up, and wants help for the missing part because some guy forgot to put it into the crate.

You say to the customer, you cannot help them according to US law.

You just ripped off his money.

That is why a ban on people, the people who service the machines, is a total ban.

You do not seem to understand this point. That people still want to buy machines that will not be serviced. They won't.
 

gelgoog

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4) We know that SMSC fab revenue has continued to increase based on their H1 report, which indicates their capacity has continued to increase this year to probably 30k wpm.
Not necessarily. SMIC might have gotten more customers for the FinFET processes i.e. the factory is more loaded to capacity or they might have improved yield. Without increasing the maximum amount of wafers they can process.

6) We know that Phytium's 14nm chips are produced at SMIC and their sales numbers are much higher this year than last year.
It is good that SMIC are getting customers for FinFET. Too many Chinese companies are choosing to fab chips at TSMC and Samsung when they could be using SMIC instead. I think this is seriously myopic on their part and they risk getting hit by sanctions too.

But at the end of the day, everyone on this forum is just as anxious as you are to see firm evidence that SMSC is in fact producing CPUs and GPUs for Chinese chip designers using its N+1 and N+2 process. That's why I'm personally eager to find out more about Moore Threads's new S80 GPU (which refuses to disclose fab or process). And I'm also eager to find out if the rumored 10nm process chip from this week (which will probably be SMIC N+1 process) will finally come out. I think we are just going to have to wait and see.
I think I read somewhere that the S80 GPU uses a 7nm process. If that is the case I doubt they are fabbing it at SMIC. The problem with GPUs is that they typically have a large die area and if the process still has too many defects the chip will be severely hit by that. Although GPUs are highly regular so perhaps that can be mitigated.

Yes, Huahong Grace only produces 55nm and more mature chips in its Wuxi and 8-inch fabs. It has two separate fabs in the Huali JV that does more advanced proceses. HLMC apparently is capable of producing 14nm chips now. But we hear very little about it, because Huahong never reports on the progress of HLMC! This is obvious from their previous quarterly earning reports. From what we know, HLMC fab 6 (the one doing 28 to 14 nm process) is finally getting close to reaching its capacity of 40k wpm. There is also speculation now of a new HLMC advanced node fab. We will have to see. Overall, Huahong is growing a lot and their margins are getting much better. All great signs.
If you go to Wikipedia's semiconductor fabs list someone took care to delete HLMC Fab 5 and 6 from the list. Idiotic deletionists. So if you think that list is accurate you would think Hua Hong only have 55nm. Which is bollocks. Since Zhaoxin has sold CPUs made at HLMC which use 40nm and 28nm processes.

According to this person, SMSC does a lot of 7nm/14nm and they cannot obtain Lam equipment. That should tell you everything. SMSC is non-American. It would have expanded a lot faster if it had access to American tools.

The biggest constraint from what I can see is ASML scanners and funding. Since they started getting NXT2050i in H2 2021 and now NXT2100i, they are probably now able to move into more complicated N+1 process now.
I hope you are right about SMIC FinFET capacity expansion. But I am kind of skeptical.

You do not take early deliveries of ASML scanners unless you need it in the next couple of years. SMEE scanners should be capable enough for most of their new fabs. The NXT2050i/2100i that they are buying are for expanding SMSC production. The plan was to reach 70k wpm eventually. They simply don't talk about it now, but I think it will expand beyond that. You probably just need about 30 Arfi scanners to produce maybe 20k 14 nm wpm, 50k N+1/N+2 wpm. I think they are buying more than that in quantity.
What about all the new SMIC 28nm fabs then? I doubt they will be using non-existant SMEE immersion lithography machines.
 

FairAndUnbiased

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This is the latest report released by Huahong,as you can see their most advanced node is 55nm.

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According to this old 2018 news,Huahong started to make 28nm back in 2018. So why there is no 28nm on their report?Do Huahong still making 28nm or the have they stalled the production?Huahong cannot ramp up 28nm production in four years time?



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But you knew that, didn't you? So why you try to mislead people?
 

Overseaschinese

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I think I read somewhere that the S80 GPU uses a 7nm process. If that is the case I doubt they are fabbing it at SMIC. The problem with GPUs is that they typically have a large die area and if the process still has too many defects the chip will be severely hit by that. Although GPUs are highly regular so perhaps that can be mitigated.
I read on many pages that the MUSA-Chunxiao architecture is in 12nm process. It should be SMIC.
 
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