Chinese semiconductor industry

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tphuang

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I don't think we have hit rock bottom yet.
Imo the worst, although not in US' interests, is a full blown <14nm chip embargo for all Chinese companies/entities

I think that is very likely. Any Chinese companies not planning for that is being very foolish. But just to guard against foolishness of companies like geely, nio and xpeng, the Chinese govt may have to secretly pressure them to go with domestic options.

Again, it's very important for smic to raise production of its smsc fabs in order to supply domestic demand for these things.

Server CPUs got spared this time around. I can really see us government targeting that next and deprive Chinese cloud service providers from buying Intel and AMD server chips. So, Alibaba and Huawei better start stocking up on their own server chips.
Put Chinese entities (companies and people) on
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Hmm, maybe to a couple of companies, but you gotta calm the hyperventilation. After all, for a lot of industries, china is the only option. I don't see china doing much here because these moves help china's local industries. But if they start denying export markets to china, I can see china just stop exporting stuff like neon gas, rare Earth's, gallium and silicon to America. That would actually be devastating.
A positive take
""The tech decoupling could serve as China's Sputnik moment in innovation, forcing it to take a top-down and self-reliance approach, especially in semiconductors," Citi economists said in a note, likening it to the surge in spending and research seen in the United States after the Soviet Union's launch of the world's first satellite."

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I don't think we need positive takes or affirmation. China also doesn't need Sputnik moment.

The Chinese chip industry is making great progress. Aside from slower expansion with ymtc and cxmt as well as see personnel loss, this law is a huge net plus for china and a huge strike against us companies. In the short term, Japan and European suppliers will benefit. Long term, Chinese suppliers are huge winners here.
 

vincent

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Hmm, maybe to a couple of companies, but you gotta calm the hyperventilation. After all, for a lot of industries, china is the only option. I don't see china doing much here because these moves help china's local industries. But if they start denying export markets to china, I can see china just stop exporting stuff like neon gas, rare Earth's, gallium and silicon to America. That would actually be devastating.
Who’s hyperventilating? You asked a question on how low can the US go so I provided an answer.
 

tokenanalyst

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Hesitant, but most will get on board. They don’t have a choice. If they complain, it will be in private. Waiting to see how they can effectively enforce the ban though. Also waiting to see if Chinese government can enact policies to further attract/retain global talent going forward.
There is no logic in the policies coming from DC basically since Trump, no thinking about consequences, no end goals or no mitigations, just use the hammer. Just look the anger of the SK minister with US senators. Unilateral things like the FDPR or the thing with US citizens just make US politicians look like chimpanzees with an AKs.
What argument can convince Japan to destroy the small market share in the industry they have left"? Losing that market share to Chinese players and creating more unwanted competition in already crowded industry just because one group of individuals in DC are insecure about their country ability to compete doesn't look that appealing.
 

ansy1968

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Well all the information here is public. But is a good idea to obfuscate personal names and places, we don't want this thread to become people suspicious of other people and people accusing other people. Lets keep it civilized.

Although I think one of the reasons why the Hawks on D.C are doing this is because they don't know in what waters they are getting into. I think a lot of this Hawks are pretty ignorant about this issues. I keep hearing the same thing over and over: "China can't make this stuff", "it will take China decades to do this", "They don't have this or that". But when you look for example a this thread or do some homework you find out that they already have it or they are pretty close to have it.
If like they are influencing goverment policy base on ignorance or worst base on laziness or is an effort to obfuscate the reality on the ground to influence public policy.
Chinese language is a beauty to behold...lol
 

gelgoog

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US is already destroying what little semi industry Japan has left. Just look at what happened with Toshiba. Broken up and sold in pieces to US Western Digital and US Micron. And why? Because Toshiba went bankrupt after they purchased US nuclear energy company Westinghouse. Westinghouse was hiding massive corporate losses from their US reactor construction program and Toshiba main company had to pay the bill.
Sony does not even manufacture their own hardware, except for camera sensors, they make no high end logic chips. The PS5 uses US SoCs.
Same deal with Nintendo. They could easily make some low end ARM SoC with Mali GPU given their client base, but instead they pay US companies like NVIDIA to design their chips.
 

KYli

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What is the point of a new ban. It isn't like the US would ever allow its telecom companies from purchasing equipment from Huawei and ZTE to begin with. US should focus upon taking out old Huawei and ZTE equipment from its telecom companies. It is already costing 5 billions to rip and replace Huawei and ZTE gear and it doesn't look like it is anywhere near completed.
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Topazchen

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What is the point of a new ban. It isn't like the US would ever allow its telecom companies from purchasing equipment from Huawei and ZTE to begin with. US should focus upon taking out old Huawei and ZTE equipment from its telecom companies. It is already costing 5 billions to rip and replace Huawei and ZTE gear and it doesn't look like it is anywhere near completed.
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The point is to create headlines. Feel good headlines
 
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ansy1968

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View attachment 99404

Basically what we having saying in this thread since the beginning, the military do not use this advance nodes manly because reliability issues, they usually make their chips using mature nodes.
CETC equipment alone and/or SMEE dry scanners probably are good enough for mostly 95% of China military weapon and space chips needs with the more advanced rest been made by probably low volume immersion or EUV or Ion beam, soft Xray or Ebeam lithography.

View attachment 99401
"But dude what about muh AI chip, you need the 0.0000000005nm ASML TSMC ALIEN AREA 51 Machine technology for that"

The main driver of AI in the future will be advance packaging "an area which China is already very good at" not node shrinking as many companies are finding out, jamming more transistors in a single chip is not scalable as was before and will get very expensive to scale for AI applications, Is like the Human brain your neurons don't get smaller but your cranium grow bigger to pack more.

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The the China hawks in DC are probably better off banning EVG hybrid bonders (An Austrian company)
View attachment 99402
than trying to ban ASML machines.

A technology which by the way SMIC and U-Precision are developing.
View attachment 99403
While had a foot on the door regarding 7nm tech and even 5nm, All of this restriction is a ploy to force Xi to the negotiating table and dictate terms, with Pelosi visit it ain't gonna happen Brandon...lol While it made good headlines next year when Huawei or other Chinese tech officially announcement new development let's see how the US administration spin it because they already scrape the barrel regarding any new restriction. ;)
 
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