And how posting articles here lead to China confront the issues? I'm not sure higher echelon party members subscribe to this forum.
Chinese semiconductor industry
- Thread starter Hendrik_2000
- Start date
- Status
They having working in this lens system since the delivery of their 0.75NA system.
I read it in a 2021 patent that they may reached 0.83NA but can't find it now.
So can China make fabs that use 100% domestic tooling or fabs that have no American content at the very least? No Applied Materials, LAM Research, KLA, etc. A good attack for China is to deprive those companies of revenue and furiously expand 14nm+ chips with purely domestic equipment. Those supercomputing centers don't need <= 7nm chips right?
this is a little better. Keep in mind that we typically don't like posting same article from different new sources. A lot of times they restate the same things. This particular one does have some points to discuss and I've narrowed them as shown above.
What this shows is the following (and I narrowed them down for a reason)
1) US companies are hit the hardest. this law simply formalize many of the existing policies already in place. However, this may add some additional restrictions and more importantly scare off Chinese companies even more from buying from American suppliers.
2) the people that pushed for these restrictions have no real idea of the current capabilities of Chinese firms and think this will cripple China for many years.
3) All these laws were done without any cooperation from other nations or input from their own industry
4) They added a couple of other companies like YMTC and NAURA to UVL. Without knowing their own successes in de-americanize, it's hard to say how big of hit it is.
So what this indicates is:
1) the laws are most likely more showy than substantative
2) Chinese companies may or may not be slowed down here. I suspect it's different for different Chinese companies
3) Other nations are not on board with this. Regardless of whether or not you are an American ally, anyone in IC industry probably would consider this level of abuse of power to be dangerous for global supply chain. As such, the best thing China can do is continue to point out the ridiculousness of American policies and work with international partners while also developing its own industry.
4) I've already examined the effect this is likely to have on SMIC/Huahong and chip design firms (likely not much), but the effect on YMTC/NARUA is still to be determined.
5) Chinese companies will likely be able to continue to buy equipment from American companies for 28 nm and up, but anything more advanced than that will likely require non-American tools. As such, American equipments will continue to be bought because Chinese tools makers likely have not ramped up to a point where they can fully supply Chinese market. Once we hit that inflection point, American IC tool export to China will be quite low.
6) They likely only pushed for this because the existing pressure against Dutch government did not succeed. They also likely did not get what they need in the chip 4 alliance from Japan, SK and Taiwan.
Why do people on this forum feel humiliated for China so easily? If these private companies want things to proceed as normal, then they can work with US officials. If not, they can added to entity list. It really depends on how companies like NAURA, YMTC and CXMT view their current indigenization effort. If they are confident, then they can say f u to US inspection and be put on entity list. If they are not confident or don't want to be put on entity list, then they can allowing inspection.
It's just business.
While it is quite likely that people on this thread are overly optimistic about progress of SMEE, your responses have been quite disrespectful. You would rather base your judgement on some random analysis from a couple of guys most likely sifting through Chinese internet sources (I can assure you some of their assumptions are not factual, I've done quite a bit of research on this) than getting it from an official government minister who would know these things. Of course these things are not broadcasted. China would like the dummies in Washington to continue with self destructive policies. There are a ton of resources on this thread that have been posted regarding the progress of Chinese Arfi scanner. If I have to guess, 2023 will be the first year where they are able to deliver a good number of Arfi scanners, but we will see.
If you want to be part of the discussion, then please read up these material rather than just be dismissive and disrespectful to other members on this thread.
I think this is a really great point. We only know that American tool makers are screwed over here. It was clearly done in a rush before the midterms in a bid to show that the Biden administration is tough on China. It seemed to have been done in a way with 0 input from the industry itself or partner countries.
As such, China can put itself in good light by blasting this terrible precedence by American gov't and pledge to continue working with other countries to strengthen global supply chain. Companies everywhere will be looking for alternatives to American companies so I think TSMC/Samsung more willing to work with NAURA, AMEC and other Chinese companies in making their chips.
Going after equipment manufacturers is useless. How do they sanction stainless steel or aluminum machining? Welding? Cleaning?
Equipment manufacturers don't even need to machine the chamber themselves. They can outsource to a domestic machine shop and buy from them, and only do the proprietary steps internally like the cleaning and chamber coatings.
Electronically, it is like Raspberry Pi level controllable. A CVD chamber for example has a 4-6 zone heater plate for temperature measurement. Let's say 6 zone heater. You only need 12 channels of IO: 6 for reading temperature, 6 for a SSR signal. Each gas valve or gate valve is single channel. If you want external signal control that's a bit more complicated but you can get pretty far with just temperature, flow and time profiles.
Not as of 2022. Cost/performance sweet spot is 28 nm which is why it is extremely popular for industrial and vehicle applications. If you have size and power restrictions while having budget restrictions, you go to 14/12 nm. 7 nm is easily a high-end node that you'd use for new GPUs and CPUs. In the future, it may become what 14/12 nm currently is because of the cost of EUV. But not yet.
I like to read views of more knowledgable people. And now back to semiconductors, please.
Not for high volume production. Yet. I think you will probably see in the comings years will be the rise of the "medium volume" "U.S.-less" fab like the ones that Huawei is doing.
Why is that? I thought Chinese equipment suppliers ex lithography have those capabilities. They say AMEC/Naura are basically high end suppliers.
There can be multiple sweet spots in the cost/performance curve, for different applications. 7nm is definitely a sweet spot node, as of 2022. Note that I use the word "also." 28nm node and 7nm node are not exactly apple to apple.
In the future, the entire cost/performance curve may shift due to technology and/or cost, I agree.
- Status