Chinese semiconductor industry

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hvpc

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Franklin said:
Has anyone got a update on China's domestic DUV machines fore 28nm chips. I understand that it will be at least till 2025 before it comes out. You can have 28nm chips with packaging you can get 14nm. China is already good with packaging machines. Or I'm I wrong in my understanding of the situation.
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All of these 28nm+packaging = 14nm or 14nm+packaging=7nm is none sense. It doesn't work that way.

At 14nm, the unit cell is smaller (so you can pack more transistor in a given area, or higher transistor density) all the while having better performance and power consumption than 28nm. So even packaging by stacking multiple 28nm chips to obtain the same total number of transistor in a given planar area (or claim of reaching same transistor density), it still won't reach the same performance or power consumption of a 14nm monolithic chip. And we are just talking about BEOL, I've not even start to talk about the benefit of smaller features of 14nm in the FEOL portion of the chip

Same logic would apply to claim of 14nm+packaging = 7nm monolithic chip.
 
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Biscuits

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tphuang said:
I will say one thing about Chinese reaction to these sanctions. They have been quite passive and whiny about these sanctions. They probably should be trying to take advantage of them. A good thing to do is to make national security laws that prevent sales of any firms to China that participates in these sanctions. Any firms that cannot sell their best stuff to China should be able to sell anything to China. You can make exceptions on that, but there is no reason for China to buy older generation AMD or Intel chips. The sooner these companies can downsize in China and for those talents to join Chinese competitors, the better it would be for China.
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Because to the leadership, these bans only meaningfully affect civilian private companies, which has an effect of increasing competition.

Doing sanctions will inevitably weaken market share, something China likely doesn't want unless its an emergency. If things really start going down between US and China, Beijing will nationalise TSMC and hit US with sanctions on both finished chips and electronics components at the same time. But, as said above, bad for Chinese civilian competitiveness if the govt hard carries them.
 
MrCrazyBoyRavi

MrCrazyBoyRavi

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Chips war is as much as political war as a technological war. Unless China can convince other nations to ignore US long arm juridiction, US will find one way or another to ban/block other nations from buying Chinese product.

Lets assume China did manage to make all high end chips fully indegenously but apart from Chinese market will they be able to sell to other nations? US can simply ban an equipment running on western software that have Chinese Chips.
Lets say China masteres both hardware & software aspect of those product but US can still impose sanction on that company on the basis of human rights abuse and sanction any other nation and their company that buys those product.
 
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Biscuits

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MrCrazyBoyRavi said:
Chips war is as much as political war as a technological war. Unless China can convince other nations to ignore US long arm juridiction, US will find one way or another to ban/block other nations from buying Chinese product.

Lets assume China did manage to make all high end chips fully indegenously but apart from Chinese market will they be able to sell to other nations? US can simply ban an equipment running on western software that have Chinese Chips.
Lets say China masteres both hardware & software aspect of those product but US can still impose sanction on that company on the basis of human rights abuse and sanction any other nation and their company that buys those product.
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This is the outcome being worked towards, which is the Sovietization of American electronics industry.

Continued lead and dominance in each tech sector will force US and the most loyal US followers, equivalents to the SSRs of the Russians, to ban the purchase of such goods due to political fears. Without good competition, these countries fall further and further behind, giving China and its friends the tech edge needed to gradually roar ahead.

China applied a similar method for many different sectors, semiconductors will only be the latest in a row of conquests where US attempts to "compete" failed.
 
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Franklin

Captain
hvpc said:
All of these 28nm+packaging = 14nm or 14nm+packaging=7nm is none sense. It doesn't work that way.

At 14nm, the unit cell is smaller (so you can pack more transistor in a given area, or higher transistor density) all the while having better performance and power consumption than 28nm. So even packaging by stacking multiple 28nm chips to obtain the same total number of transistor in a given planar area (or claim of reaching same transistor density), it still won't reach the same performance or power consumption of a 14nm monolithic chip. And we are just talking about BEOL, I've not even start to talk about the benefit of smaller features of 14nm in the FEOL portion of the chip

Same logic would apply to claim of 14nm+packaging = 7nm monolithic chip.
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What kind of 14nm chips are SMIC mass producing then ? And what about the 7nm breakthrough that they had ?
 
siegecrossbow

siegecrossbow

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Franklin said:
I need something more concrete than a junior members claim to have heard that SMEE DUV machines are tapping out thousands of wafers in Shanghai.
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siegecrossbow said:
28NM DUV confirmed.

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siegecrossbow said:
28NM DUV has been created since last year but it is still two generations behind EUV from ASML. Due to pressure TSML and ASML won’t cooperate with China. We’ll work harder and screw them over in the not so distant future.

P.S. Ok I made the last part up. But no doubt that’s going through the guy’s mind.
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Original video has been deleted, but it was an interview with Li Yi (former Minister of Industry and Information Technology). It is as legit as it can get.
 
F

Franklin

Captain
siegecrossbow said:
Original video has been deleted, but it was an interview with Li Yi (former Minister of Industry and Information Technology). It is as legit as it can get.
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If China really has produced a domestic DUV machine that can produce 28nm chips being delivered and used it would have made a lot bigger splash on the internet than a single video on a Chinese video sharing site that is now deleted.

I'm still unconvinced.
 
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