Chinese semiconductor industry

I'm looking up information on Phytium 飞腾 and their products. As discussed earlier, they produce a 腾云S2500 server cpu that is used in the Baidu AI accelerator server. Notice here how both S2500 and FT2000 can be used in Paddle inference server

Looking into it made me realize that they had to abandon their S5000 project because they got put on the entity list back in 2021. According to this article, China Mobile was moving to using Phytium CPU S2500 for their servers. S2500 seems to be serving the same role as Yitian-710 and Kunpeng-920 would serve, except probably not as advanced as those.
But the more curious part is that S5000 was supposed to be released last year using 7nm process and S6000 was supposed to be released this year with 5nm process. Neither happened due to entity list.

@PopularScience reported earlier this thread that Phytium will be producing chips with N+1 process. So, I can only imagine that a next generation server chip is on the card and to be produced that will use this N+1 process.

But S2500, is not their only product. Last year, they also came out with D2000 CPU for desktops that uses 14 nm process and the mini-PCs that use them. Given the entity list restrictions, I can only imagine that they are being produced by SMIC here.
Note again that it runs with Kylin Ubuntu OS. Seems entirely designed to replace foreign desktops.

What is truly impressive is how many they've sold. According to this article here back in March from their website. They had already sold over 2 million D2000 chips! Also mentions allowing it work with high end domestic GPU. I'm not sure what this domestic GPU is. Are they referring to ones by Moores Thread?

这款产品采用的飞腾腾锐D2000是目前信创市场广受认可的国产自主桌面 CPU，其针对桌面、移动、工控和网安等场景拥有8个子型号，市场销量突破两百万片。随着飞腾CPU与更多国产高性能GPU实现深度适配、

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Back in July, D2000 got a national award for top 10 hard core technology. It's clearly doing well with the crowd that is pushing for domestic alternatives.

This more recent article from August truly shows how much they are selling here. Now, they are over 3 million chips. So it's possible they sold a million in 5 months! They have 8 types including desktop, mobile, industrial control, network security. I guess Chinese corporations are buy this on mass. I would not be surprised if they are one of the large SMIC customers right now.

雷峰网了解到，飞腾腾锐D2000处理器针对桌面、移动、工控和网安等场景拥有8个子型号，累计销量已突破300万片。

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This is the other part that makes me think SMICs N+1 process will be used for a new generation server chip. They have one coming out that will have significantly improved performance. This could be used on any domestic cloud server providers or AI server boxes.

郭御风透露，已经设计完成的飞腾新一代高性能服务器CPU，性能相比上一代将会有显著的提升，这有利于飞腾走向信创深水区，满足更多客户的高端需求，也有利于拓宽自身的护城河。

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My guess is US companies can't keep up with Huawei so the US government eases curbs. Otherwise, the US would be competely left behind in the competition as Huawei sets the 5G/6G standards.

FairAndUnbiased said:

Unless their fab and/or R&D lab is physically inside China, it is only Chinese on paper.

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They have R&D lab in shanghai.

If the Biren GPU's provide similar performance to the Nvidia A100/AMD equivalent for AI accelerator purposes then ironically Nvidia and AMD can use that as leverage to press for licenses to sell to China based on obscure interpretations of export control regulations. Basically, the Commerce Department has the discretion to remove items from the export control list/grant licenses for those items that should otherwise be restricted if similar products are freely available on the destination market with minimal controls. Essentially, if China has comparable products across any item in the technology stack which the US puts on export control lists, US companies will make the case that restrictions do nothing in terms of denial and therefore they should be allowed licenses to sell since it just becomes self-defeating. It will be quite ironic if Nvidia is allowed to sell at least the A100 despite the ban on paper. If foreign companies can export products to China w/ minimal burden, it also serves as points in the US companies favor although less so than if it is sourced within China.

Just as a side note, most of these bans are driven by politicians by what they read and hear. The US Commerce Department tries to put up a good rearguard action for their corporate constituents but the politicians can make their lives difficult so you take a hit and fight elsewhere when their 15s attention span is over. Don't worry though, those Commerce Department bureaucrats fighting for Corporate USA will have a nice comfy retirement as a company lobbyist down the road.

Changsha BYD Semiconductor's 8-inch automotive chip production line is expected to be put into operation in October

Annual output 500,000 wafers

european_guy said:

US and China are going toward decoupling in semiconductors....Apple anticipated everybody and it's already there.

A Chinese version for Chinese market, a Chinese-free version for US and western market and an open-ended story for the rest of the world (probably it will end up Chinese in few years from now due to better costs).

Smart move by Apple that is trying to have his cake and eat it too.

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Bro I can see ASML (with either Gigaphoton or RS laser), TSMC , Samsung (IF SMEE do deliver an EUVL) and even Intel do the same. Right now the CCP is letting the market forces decide, using the invisible hand to point where the future policy direction is going as they prepare the necessary tools and infrastructure to support. The US are panicking as both the Semiconductor and aircraft engine tech are within China grasp as it points to 2025 as the year of achieving self sufficiency.

TSMC is trying to give a positive spin despite the setback it had experience, BUT its future expectation and projection are too optimistic, facing stiff competition from SMIC from the lower end and Samsung from the high end, plus the low demand due to economic uncertainty. Maybe they need to scale back its ambition and rethink its expansion plan to escape a possible bankruptcy.

Taiwan’s TSMC sees four big clients scale back orders​

JPMorgan report says MediaTek, Nvidia, Qualcomm, AMD have reduced their TSMC orders​

By , Taiwan News, Staff Writer
2022/09/08 15:42
[IMG alt="TSMC. (Reuters photo)
"]
TSMC. (Reuters photo)

TAIPEI (Taiwan News) — Amid slowing demand for consumer electronics and recent changes to U.S. chip export policies, Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. (TSMC) has seen orders cut back from some of its biggest clients.
Citing a recent JPMorgan Chase & Company report, the on Tuesday (Sept. 6) said that MediaTek, Nvidia, Qualcomm, and Advanced Micro Devices (AMD) have reduced their orders from TSMC. This has led to TSMC shutting down four of its extreme ultraviolet lithography machines, which will reduce monthly production by 15,000 units.
Weaker global demand for consumer electronics, in addition to new export imposed by the U.S. government on advanced graphics processing units made by Nvidia and AMD to China and Russia have all affected TSMC’s orders.
In response to the reports, TSMC on Wednesday (Sept. 7) that it does not comment on market rumors. The Taiwanese chipmaker also said that production capacity will remain tight throughout 2022.

TSMC also said that it still expects 2022 revenue growth to be in the mid-30% range, while it still sees continued growth in 2023. The world’s largest contract chipmaker also said that its compound annual growth rate should remain between 15-20% over the next few years.
The chipmaker also pointed out that even though the global economy will face struggles in the short term, it expects long-term demand for chips to remain robust.

ansy1968 said:

Bro I can see ASML (with either Gigaphoton or RS laser), TSMC , Samsung (IF SMEE do deliver an EUVL) and even Intel do the same. Right now the CCP is letting the market forces decide, using the invisible hand to point where the future policy direction is going as they prepare the necessary tools and infrastructure to support. The US are panicking as both the Semiconductor and aircraft engine tech are within China grasp as it points to 2025 as the year of achieving self sufficiency.

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Since SMIC can now make 7nm chips with their N+1 technology, does that mean they can make a similar chip as the AMD Ryzen 5600 which is also based on 7nm process? But Intel's i5 11700 chip is based on 14 nm process, but can produce similar performance.

henrik said:

Since SMIC can now make 7nm chips with their N+1 technology, does that mean they can make a similar chip as the AMD Ryzen 5600 which is also based on 7nm process? But Intel's i5 11700 chip is based on 14 nm process, but can produce similar performance.

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Bro SMIC SN1 FAB in Shanghai is to produce 12nm and 14nm chips with 35,000 wpm capacity, the second Shanghai FAB the SN2 will increase it to 100,000 wpm both FAB will be using ASML DUVL.






Sub-14nm Chips from SMIC | SMIC's SN1 Fab in Shanghai will produce sub-14nm chipsReference : Video animations and digital images ...
YouTube · NanpengTV · Nov 18, 2021