Chinese semiconductor industry

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FairAndUnbiased

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If Huawei has made their own 28nm lithograph I would not be surprised if they more or less used the same design and central components as SMEE, and ended up with a machine that looks mostly identical. If they’re building for internal use only they can justify lower efficiency and reliability before adoption because they're not trying to turn the machine itself into a revenue positive business, and all the additional costs would be folded into the operations budget. It would essentially be an internal subsidy the company pays to itself to sustain the technological capability. This would be extremely expensive to the company if done at scale, but on the flip side they could move much quicker on the adoption learning curve and may be able to improve the quality of their instruments faster given that they could support utilization of their instrument at a loss well before their instruments reach quality and reliability levels comparable to the market.
IDK about lithography much but I know many labs both academic and corporate who made R&D scale or even pilot scale deposition and metrology equipment from standard components, and they work very well. There's even component companies who sell their own branded equipment made from their own off-the-shelf parts.

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european_guy

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Currently Hisilicon is the one using the 14nm 100% Domestic Line.

This would be already a huge milestone. Even with low yield and low capacity,

FABS in China now realise that in order to produce 14nm and 7nm Chips, it is a necessity to use Local Semiconductor Equipment and Local DUVL.
American and Japanese equipment are no longer reliable and a waste of Money.

That's for dead sure! Equipment lifetime spans many years and decades (and US administrations), you cannot buy now withouth considering the future.

SMIC has recently appointed Lu Hanming from the Chinese Academy of Engineering to its Board to help in the Localisation of Equipment.

SMIC core R&D team is from Taiwan, and maybe they have their mentality and habits. Eventually someone decided that SMIC needed a little "push" for localization ;)

There are rumours that Hisilicon has produced its own 28nm Immersion DUVL. It hired alot of talent from SMEE. Huawei wants to move faster and needs to make its own equipment.

Well if it is true, it means Huawei took much more than talent from SMEE. The only way to move faster is to take full SMEE litho machine design and blueprints and continue from there. Anyhow this rumor seems to me a bit odd because it would be a duplication and waste of precious and scarce resources. It would meake more sense for a team from Huawei to go to SMEE and join a SMEE project team to work on a dedicated machine customization for Huawei.
 

ansy1968

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Well if it is true, it means Huawei took much more than talent from SMEE. The only way to move faster is to take full SMEE litho machine design and blueprints and continue from there. Anyhow this rumor seems to me a bit odd because it would be a duplication and waste of precious and scarce resources. It would meake more sense for a team from Huawei to go to SMEE and join a SMEE project team to work on a dedicated machine customization for Huawei.
Here bro I take the contrarian view, to fast track the development , Huawei (being sanction anyway) may have taken the task of developing future Iteration (SSA900 22NM DUVL) while at the same time verifying and establishing the production process of 14nm domestic line, remember ICRD is the one assisting Huawei in her Fabrication effort. My conclusion is base on @olalavn post about Hisilicon and SMEE JV on 7nm Litho, cobble with @WTAN post of a possible 7nm domestic line late next year. The successful verification and mass production process of 14nm as shown by the marketing effort of Huawei about the possible Return of The King in 2023.

I maybe wrong BUT the dotted line is there to connect and May I add one more, SMIC may have a collaboration agreement with Huawei regarding their 7nm N+2 chip IF Hisilicon is able to produce a domestic functioning 7nm line, they may use it to mass produce 7nm chip without getting SMIC into trouble from the Americans.
 
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ansy1968

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And here I can see ASML will survived and thrived, China is a vast market and with a possible 180 DUVL units, those machine need to be service, as they work together they may find solution to overcome those restriction and one of those is sourcing local parts and creating local subsidiaries or even investing in domestic component maker like U-Precision.
 

antiterror13

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And here I can see ASML will survived and thrived, China is a vast market and with a possible 180 DUVL units, those machine need to be service, as they work together they may find solution to overcome those restriction and one of those is sourcing local parts and creating local subsidiaries or even investing in domestic component maker like U-Precision.

Do we know what composition of 180 DUV machine sold to China? interesting to see how many are 2000i and 2050i ?
 

FairAndUnbiased

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This would be already a huge milestone. Even with low yield and low capacity,



That's for dead sure! Equipment lifetime spans many years and decades (and US administrations), you cannot buy now withouth considering the future.



SMIC core R&D team is from Taiwan, and maybe they have their mentality and habits. Eventually someone decided that SMIC needed a little "push" for localization ;)



Well if it is true, it means Huawei took much more than talent from SMEE. The only way to move faster is to take full SMEE litho machine design and blueprints and continue from there. Anyhow this rumor seems to me a bit odd because it would be a duplication and waste of precious and scarce resources. It would meake more sense for a team from Huawei to go to SMEE and join a SMEE project team to work on a dedicated machine customization for Huawei.
I agree. if Huawei did make their own instrument, it is done by buying the SMEE schematics with a complete BoM. I am not an expert on lithography but based on what I learned and some more thoughts, DUV lithography isn't like deposition where you can make monkey model pilot scale instruments from standard parts.

I tried looking up the major parts like the stage, DUV optics column, etc. and it is really, really hard to find the OEM parts. particularly for the DUV optics, you can't just buy a projection system, you have to fully design it yourself. The air bearing stage is custom made, you can't just buy an air bearing stage of that size and accuracy. At best you can get a stage with ~ um accuracy, ~40 nm repeatability and even that you have to call for quote (and customization).
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This tells me that DUV lithography is definitely the hardest piece of equipment to replicate even at lab scale.
 

latenlazy

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Anyhow this rumor seems to me a bit odd because it would be a duplication and waste of precious and scarce resources. It would meake more sense for a team from Huawei to go to SMEE and join a SMEE project team to work on a dedicated machine customization for Huawei.
Parallelization is not always wasteful because there are such things as bottlenecks in the development process, and widening the surface area of efforts can also translate to broadening odds of success or maximizing process learning. These are the same tradeoffs for any decision involving centralization/decentralization variables.
 

Pkp88

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Currently Hisilicon is the one using the 14nm 100% Domestic Line.
But SMIC and others will be adopting more of the Local equipment for their 14nm Production.
FABS in China now realise that in order to produce 14nm and 7nm Chips, it is a necessity to use Local Semiconductor Equipment and Local DUVL.
American and Japanese equipment are no longer reliable and a waste of Money.
SMIC has recently appointed Lu Hanming from the Chinese Academy of Engineering to its Board to help in the Localisation of Equipment.

There are rumours that Hisilicon has produced its own 28nm Immersion DUVL. It hired alot of talent from SMEE. Huawei wants to move faster and needs to make its own equipment.

The CETC 28nm Immersion DUVL is slated to be released later in the year.
No offense but is there some evidence for a 100% domestic line. That’s a major development if true.
 
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