Chinese semiconductor industry

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hvpc

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With SMEE SSA800 DUVL on the horizon, well good luck ASML your gov't policy seemed like an oxymoron...lol
bro, you are confusing me. I thought you had previously said there were already a handful of SSA800 28nm SMEE system shipped last year & the SSA900 is on the horizon?

what exactly is your belief on the status of SMEE immersion DUVL?

I actually don't have much faith in SMEE. Any system they already have in the market is most likely to be subpar. I don't think the Dutch would agree to the American's demand, but if they do cave that's not good news for Chinese fabs. Sorry man, I'm just not as bullish on what SMEE can deliver as you are.
 
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tokenanalyst

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I actually don't have much faith in SMEE. Any system they already have in the market is most likely to be subpar. I don't think the Dutch would agree to the American's demand, but if they do cave that's not good news for Chinese fabs. Sorry man, I'm just not as bullish on what SMEE can deliver as you are.
Having faith or not SMEE is basically irrelevant because is only one company in a multitude of companies, research institutes and people working toward this, a better phrase would be if ALL this institutions in China can create a system like this. All the information i have recollected lead me to believe this is a huge equipment project, I don't even think China J-20 was this big. I don't know when they are going to deliver but god damn if they are working hard.

Next, is the word "Subpar", is relative, we all can agree that having something that can offer 80% of what ASML or Nikon can offer is much much better than having nothing. But probably "the plan" is not to oust ASML or Nikon from the Chinese market but have a tool good enough that allows sanctioned companies like Huawei to bypass American sanctions, in a production environment a positive feedback loop could develop. Also having a functional tool, even if is not as good as ASML will definitely going to put pressure in the Netherlands and Japan to not increase export controls, that last thing ASML and Nikon need is more competition. That is my take.
 

european_guy

Junior Member
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I don't think the Dutch would agree to the American's demand,

Here is my bet on this:

- They will compromise on banning the NXT:2050i and maybe even the NXT:2000i. The NXT1980Di will remain out of ban.

- US will ask to block even the already sold (but still not delivered) machines, like they did for EUV. I give 50% of probability they will succeed also in this.


The bottom line is: China should build some workable DUV litho machine as soon as possible, really as soon as possible.
 

tokenanalyst

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I don't think the Dutch would agree to the American's demand
I do agree that the Dutch government is unlikely to agree to ban DUVi tools and more when American companies still have unrestricted access to the Chinese market. This is maybe political football between the GOP and the DOP, were the DOP can boast about trying to "Contain China" without angering the powerful semiconductor lobby in the U.S. They just passed all the responsibility to the Dutch government.
Commenting on the Dutch government’s stance on alleged human rights abuses in China, Hoekstra said he is “very worried about many of the news reports.”

“That’s been something I’ve been voicing and many of my colleagues have been voicing vis-a-vis the Chinese,” he said.
China has been accused of running a state-sponsored forced-labor program in Xinjiang under the guise of anti-poverty efforts, sending as many as 1 million Uyghurs to so-called re-education camps. China has repeatedly denied mistreatment of the Uyghurs and says crackdowns in Hong Kong are to prevent insurrection.
I almost forgot, but I love how Bloomberg sprinkle human rights stuff all over this article like trying to guilt trip the Dutch government into submission, is almost like if they have an agenda.
 

tokenanalyst

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Registered Member
Here is my bet on this:

- They will compromise on banning the NXT:2050i and maybe even the NXT:2000i. The NXT1980Di will remain out of ban.

- US will ask to block even the already sold (but still not delivered) machines, like they did for EUV. I give 50% of probability they will succeed also in this.


The bottom line is: China should build some workable DUV litho machine as soon as possible, really as soon as possible.
The NXT:2050i is easier to ban because that model use the latest cymer 120W Arfi laser but they will have trouble agreeing on the NXT:2000i that can be fitted with Gigaphoton Arfi lasers.

I think that the blocking on the EUV machine that was going to be delivered to China in 2020 was possible because that was not a production machine but a machine for research and development, another thing will be to block machines for a production fab that ASML agree to deliver, they will be liable in China for not delivering and will taint ASML reputation.​
 

antiterror13

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Dutch Confirm Talks With US on Chipmaking-Gear Ban on China​


  • Dutch foreign minister says two countries discussed the issue
  • US wants ASML to stop selling immersion lithography to China
Dutch Foreign Minister Wopke Hoekstra

Dutch Foreign Minister Wopke Hoekstra
Photographer: Peter Boer/Bloomberg

The Dutch foreign minister confirmed that the Netherlands and the US are holding discussions on blocking
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from selling to China technology used in making a large chunk of the world’s chips.

“What I can tell you is that it does make sense that you always liaise with friends when certain goods have broader strategic implications and ramifications across the globe,” Foreign Minister Wopke Hoekstra said in a wide-ranging interview in The Hague on Wednesday with a select group of journalists. “Of course you have conversations about that, and that we do.”

American officials are lobbying their Dutch counterparts to bar ASML from selling some of its older deep ultraviolet lithography, or DUV, systems, Bloomberg reported last week, citing people familiar with the matter. These machines are a generation behind cutting-edge but still the most common method in making certain less-advanced chips required by cars, phones, computers and even robots.

Washington is focused on banning sales of the most advanced type of DUV technology, immersion lithography machines, the people said.

The Dutch government, which faces pressure from US officials to expand an existing moratorium on the sale of such systems to the Asian nation, has yet to agree to any additional restrictions. China is the Netherlands’s third-biggest trade partner after Germany and Belgium.

ASML, on the other hand, opposes a ban on sales of DUV lithography equipment to Chinese customers because it is already a mature technology, Peter Wennink, the company’s chief executive officer, said earlier this year. Chinese-based facilities, run by either domestic or foreign companies, account for 14.7% of ASML’s total revenue in 2021, according to company disclosures and data compiled by Bloomberg.

ASML is the world’s top maker of lithography systems, machines that perform a crucial step in the process of creating semiconductors. ASML’s dominance of the market for that type of equipment means that further cutting China off from access to its products would undermine the Asian country’s ambitions to make itself more self-sufficient in production of the crucial electronic components.

Tensions have heightened in recent years between the US and China, the world top two economies. The US has accused China of human rights abuses in its far western Xinjiang region.

Commenting on the Dutch government’s stance on alleged human rights abuses in China, Hoekstra said he is “very worried about many of the news reports.”

“That’s been something I’ve been voicing and many of my colleagues have been voicing vis-a-vis the Chinese,” he said.
China has been accused of running a state-sponsored forced-labor program in Xinjiang under the guise of anti-poverty efforts, sending as many as 1 million Uyghurs to so-called re-education camps. China has repeatedly denied mistreatment of the Uyghurs and says crackdowns in Hong Kong are to prevent insurrection.

Are they discussing to ban 2050i only or all of them ?
 

hvpc

Junior Member
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The NXT:2050i is easier to ban because that model use the latest cymer 120W Arfi laser but they will have trouble agreeing on the NXT:2000i that can be fitted with Gigaphoton Arfi lasers.
bro, 120W laser? I've looked into this before at Cymer and Gigaphoton websites. Gigaphoton have GT65A laser for 2000i & GT66A laser for 2050i; both are maxed out at 90W. Same go for the Cymer versions. Do you have inside info on the 120W laser? What is the technical need for this?
I think that the blocking on the EUV machine that was going to be delivered to China in 2020 was possible because that was not a production machine but a machine for research and development, another thing will be to block machines for a production fab that ASML agree to deliver, they will be liable in China for not delivering and will taint ASML reputation.​
This is why I think ASML will not be involved in this thing. This will be between the US and the Dutch government. ASML could only follow any law and regulations imposed on them. Either by design or not, they will hide behind that it's not their fault for failing to deliver for following the will of the government; there's nothing they could do about it.
 
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