Chinese semiconductor industry

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FairAndUnbiased

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Here are bidding infors for Chinese fabs,if you can find any bidding from new SMIC fabs rather than old fabs,please tell me.

2022 May
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2022 April
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2022 March
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2022 January
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Do you have any source to prove that there is plenty of second hand 28nm equipments but no second hand 14nm equipments on the market?

Texas Instruments never have any 28nm fab as far as I know it,so the simple answer is TI cannot build 28nm fab because they don't have the expertise. Ti outsource many of their products to fabs in Taiwan, did you know that?
For 14 nm and 28 nm process, equipment is often similar or the same, just that 14 nm requires MORE equipment due to additional processing steps.

See paper to compare equipment required for 28 nm vs 7 nm processes. Note for etch, 3x more equipment used for 7 nm process.

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Can you prove that there is a distinct category of 14 nm only and 28 nm only equipment?

And your bidding info is a long documents. Can you point out the specific sections you refer to?
 

tokenanalyst

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Here are bidding infors for Chinese fabs,if you can find any bidding from new SMIC fabs rather than old fabs,please tell me.

2022 May
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2022 April
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2022 March
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2022 February
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2022 January
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Do you have any source to prove that there is plenty of second hand 28nm equipments but no second hand 14nm equipments on the market?

Texas Instruments never have any 28nm fab as far as I know it,so the simple answer is TI cannot build 28nm fab because they don't have the expertise. Ti outsource many of their products to fabs in Taiwan, did you know that?
Wow dude NAURA and some Chinese companies are killing it in China.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
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Wow dude NAURA and some Chinese companies are killing it in China.
From bidding info 1, NAURA got an order of 1 PVD systems and dryetch 17 systems.

Not convenient to look too carefully on phone but Huahong ordered exactly 17 dry etch that amount. So NAURA delivered equivalent to entire Huahong order dry erch.

There were only 2 PVD systems ordered so NAURA got 1/2 PVD.

Wait lmao how does this reflect poorly on Chinese suppliers??? How is this supposed to make them look bad?
 

tonyget

Senior Member
Registered Member
Can you prove that there is a distinct category of 14 nm only and 28 nm only equipment?

You couldn't have asked such question at a better time. "Shenyang Fortune-Semi",a supplier of components for semiconductor equipment just passed IPO,and released some interesting material regarding the requirement for components for different node process.

Apparently,14nm has higher requirement for components than 28nm. Since higher grade components costs more,equipment manufactures won't use components designed for 14nm on 28nm machines because it doesn't make economic sense.


You can see the full report here if whish to
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2022-06-02_042201.png
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tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member
For 14 nm and 28 nm process, equipment is often similar or the same, just that 14 nm requires MORE equipment due to additional processing steps.

See paper to compare equipment required for 28 nm vs 7 nm processes. Note for etch, 3x more equipment used for 7 nm process.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

No paywall version:

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Can you prove that there is a distinct category of 14 nm only and 28 nm only equipment?

And your bidding info is a long documents. Can you point out the specific sections you refer to?
You are correct, that is the problem the U.S politicians are having with the export control of semi equipment because a lot of equipment used to make mature nodes is also used to make advanced nodes. Immersion lithography comes to mind, is more efficient with mature nodes but add some techniques like multi-patterning and you are making 14nm chips and the same goes for etching and PVD.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
"However, since the Ukrainian crisis, Russia, which has a weak semiconductor industry, has endured round after round of Western sanctions, but it has still been able to launch batches of cutting-edge weapons. Behind this seemingly unscientific situation, it is mainly due to the extremely solid basic theoretical capabilities and strong system engineering capabilities of Russian scientists .
In this regard, Chinese missile expert Guo Yanying once wrote that Russia gave full play to its technical advantages in electronic tubes and used radio frequency circuits and analog circuits to replace some key chips. Although there are no high-end chips, designers have taken independent innovation measures in many aspects, especially advocating to take advantage of strengths and avoid weaknesses, and design microwave (radio frequency) circuits and analog circuits with unique ideas and excellent performance to replace high-end chips."
Eh. No. This was true in the late Soviet period, when the S-300 was designed, but today not really. Russia has designed its own DSPs in the late 1990s (NeuroMatrix, ELcore, etc). And what signal processing isn't done with their DSPs, it is done with imported FPGAs. That is probably their weakness, the over usage of FPGAs, which are basically dominated by US vendors. But even the FPGAs are increasingly being replaced with their own custom designs. The Russians have a couple of private companies which design ASICs for the government, they have analog chip design expertise, and those projects are not made public. Even with 90nm technology level you can do quite a lot with ASICs. Just look at that fab that Texas Instrument is building.
 
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tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member
You couldn't have asked such question at a better time. "Shenyang Fortune-Semi",a supplier of components for semiconductor equipment just passed IPO,and released some interesting material regarding the requirement for components for different node process.

Apparently,14nm has higher requirement for components than 28nm. Since higher grade components costs more,equipment manufactures won't use components designed for 14nm on 28nm machines because it doesn't make economic sense.


You can see the full report here if whish to
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

View attachment 89885
View attachment 89886
View attachment 89887

With the exception of clean room technology, looks like there is a lot overlap in the use of equipment between nodes.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
I would also not count the Russians out. They have a lot of researchers with laser and optics expertise. The Russian state just funded a program to make an EUV etcher for low volume production. And I would not be surprised if they eventually deliver it.
They will never be competitive in the mass market for chip production. But for their military needs they will find some way to deliver.
 

Michaelsinodef

Senior Member
Registered Member
I would also not count the Russians out. They have a lot of researchers with laser and optics expertise. The Russian state just funded a program to make an EUV etcher for low volume production. And I would not be surprised if they eventually deliver it.
They will never be competitive in the mass market for chip production. But for their military needs they will find some way to deliver.
Would something like an EUV etcher really be needed for the military though?

Or I suppose we might see the incorporation of better semiconductors in the military, since stuff like AI and computing power might be on higher demand huh.

Although wouldn't really low nanometers kinda be weak/not good against EW? Or was it EMP (although big emp bombs can only be achieved by nukes iirc, and even then I think even stuff at 90nm+ still needs to have some modifications to protect them from that?)
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Yes. I think that is their idea. Remember that Putin said that one of the major areas of concern for this century is the development of AI.
A country like Russia with 142 million people is hopelessly outnumbered by the US and its allies without advanced AI in weapons systems.
And yes such chips would likely be extremely weak against EMP. It would be effective only in a conventional warfare kind of scenario but once the nukes start flying it would be trash.
 
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