Chinese semiconductor industry

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AssassinsMace

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There's an assumption that journalists do their due diligence in writing articles. They make sure to dot their "i"s and cross their "t"s. No they don't. It's like what I've noted before in this forum where there was a story that said Chinese were buying up French vineyards that outraged the French. Multiple other articles afterwards said the same things. One wine journalist was going to write a story too but then decided he was going to fly to France to see himself if this were happening. He found out nothing of the sort was happening. So it only takes one lying journalist to make up a story and then other journalists will write stories themselves based that original article without ever checking to see if it was true because they all wanted to believe it. My question is how do they think the US can stop China just from stopping the West from selling the tools to China? How did they come up with these tools themselves? It's because they're going on the assumption only white people with the superior genetic intelligence can create these tools. Why is there such a thing as intellectual property? It's because it's the only thing out there that prevents someone from copying that technology for themselves. If something like that could be kept secret and prevent others from copying, you wouldn't need intellectual property rights. In order for someone to claim intellectual property, they have to show how it's done in order to establish in a society of laws that someone used the same exact methods and copied it. There's not only one way to do things in most things. So if someone finds another way of doing something, they can't claim IP theft. Google came up with what is said to be the beginnings of a quantum computer. Then China came up with their own equivalent but it uses a totally new different system that uses lasers and mirrors. Just because Google came up with a quantum computer first, does it mean they hold the intellectual property to anything called a quantum computer and China stole it from them even though it's an entirely different process? There's no byline on this article so it's safe to assume it was written by editors of the Economist that know nothing about science and engineering and are going by what many Westerners want to believe that it's about genetic superiority to believe China has to get the tools from them in order to deny them and not just the Chinese can come up with it on their own. If that were the case, why are they worried about China's rise in technology if inferior genetics will stop the Chinese on its own?

Remember when China started to develop aircraft carriers, the West said it takes 40 years to master aircraft carriers so China shouldn't bother. Was it because the West were good fellas giving China sage advice? No, they were just trying to stop China from building aircraft carriers.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
There's an assumption that journalists do their due diligence in writing articles. They make sure to dot their "i"s and cross their "t"s. No they don't. It's like what I've noted before in this forum where there was a story that said Chinese were buying up French vineyards that outraged the French. Multiple other articles afterwards said the same things. One wine journalist was going to write a story too but then decided he was going to fly to France to see himself if this were happening. He found out nothing of the sort was happening. So it only takes one lying journalist to make up a story and then other journalists will write stories themselves based that original article without ever checking to see if it was true because they all wanted to believe it. My question is how do they think the US can stop China just from stopping the West from selling the tools to China? How did they come up with these tools themselves? It's because they're going on the assumption only white people with the superior genetic intelligence can create these tools. Why is there such a thing as intellectual property? It's because it's the only thing out there that prevents someone from copying that technology for themselves. If something like that could be kept secret and prevent others from copying, you wouldn't need intellectual property rights. In order for someone to claim intellectual property, they have to show how it's done in order to establish in a society of laws that someone used the same exact methods and copied it. There's not only way to do things in most things. So if someone finds another way of doing something, they can't claim IP theft. Google came up with what is said to be the beginnings of a quantum computer. Then China came up with their own equivalent but it uses a totally new different system that uses lasers and mirrors. Just because Google came up with a quantum computer first, does it mean they hold the intellectual property to anything called a quantum computer and China stole it from them even though it's an entirely different process? There's no byline on this article so it's safe to assume it was written by editors of the Economist that know nothing about science and engineering and going by what many Westerners want to believe that it's about genetic superiority to believe China has to get the tools from them in order to deny them and not just the Chinese can come up with it on their own. If that were the case, why are they worried about China's rise in technology if inferior genetics will stop the Chinese on it's own?

Remember when China started to develop aircraft carriers, the West said it takes 40 years to master aircraft carriers so China shouldn't bother. Was it because the West were good fellas giving China sage advice? No, they were just trying to stop China from building aircraft carriers.
west didn't take 40 years to master aircraft carriers. it was like 30 years from aircraft existing at all to mastering aircraft carriers. so it's all bullshit.
 

Weaasel

Senior Member
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west didn't take 40 years to master aircraft carriers. it was like 30 years from aircraft existing at all to mastering aircraft carriers. so it's all bullshit.
He wrote that the West said "it takes 40 to master aircraft carriers so China shouldn't bother".
 

Weaasel

Senior Member
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I got to give it to them, that's some hardcore hopium:


At this point the Jai Hinders are more rational than whoever writes this kind of stuff.
They believe that it is thoroughly impossible for China to make technological breakthroughs by itself to produce highly sophisticated IC chip manufacturing equipment capable of covering all processing methodologies. Only that sort of thinking would make them assert that it would take decades for China to catch up to the West.
Gigaphoton and Cymer lasers are not interchangeable on ASML scanners. Once configured with one from the factory you have to stick to the original laser configuration. Major modifications required if want to convert Cymer laser scanner to a Gigaphton scanner. I remember making this request and that was ASML response to me.

If ASML decide not to support with Cymer then by that point no reason to believe they will help make scanner compatible with RS Laser
Thanks for the info on the minute technical details of actual practical operation...
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
He wrote that the West said "it takes 40 to master aircraft carriers so China shouldn't bother".
its the same logic as everything else. the west always says its gonna take X decades to do something so don't bother. but historically some of these things take nowhere near as long from invention to widespread adoption, and these were major things like electrical filament lighting...
 

hvpc

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't think the logic portion necessarily follows the NAND naming process though. Only the array portion follows the NAND naming process, which is reasonable.
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This is the memory array portion:

ymtc-fig4.jpg


This is the logic circuit portion:

ymtc-fig5.jpg

It would not make sense to describe both using memory array naming rules, you can tell with your eyeballs that they're nowhere near the same process!

I've also only found literature stating 180 nm is the process used for the peripheral circuits.
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It's not unreasonable either. Intrachip data transfer can be blazingly fast.
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and
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Even Ethernet I/O which is long distance can reach GB/s regularly.
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:) So you can tell the difference between 180nm and 55nm in the logic chip image you shared?
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
A summary of SMIC accomplishment and here their Dual Approach Strategy is working, using ASML DUVL they had mastered the CORE Competency of 14nm, 12nm, N+1 and finally the N+2 the real 7nm Chips as currently undergoing trial production. While the domestic line of 28nm and 14nm chips will be mass produced this year. Is it enough? will it escape the trouble brewing in the horizon as the US may consider banning all Chinese company to impede their development?

Regarding 7nm, SMIC's response is coming​

2022-04-28 16:11 HKT

Regarding 7nm, SMIC's response is coming!
With the gradual tension in the chip situation, the semiconductor industry has now become the focus of the Chinese people. We all know that 5nm is the most advanced technology now. This is also a key project that China must tackle now. There is always a process to tackle the tough problem. .
Regarding 7nm, SMIC's response is coming

China is moving towards 7nm. Although 7nm is not the most advanced technology at present, 7nm chips are now very versatile. It can be said that as long as the domestic 7nm manufacturing process is mastered, it is a big step forward from localization. In addition, the situation of chip choking will also be greatly eased. At the very least, Huawei can resume the production of mobile phones and is no longer limited by the current situation.

Regarding 7nm, SMIC's response is coming

At present, the only manufacturers that can mass produce 7nm chips in the world are Samsung and TSMC. Even the former chip giant Intel has repeatedly postponed the production time of 7nm. It is expected that mass production of 7nm will not be realized until 2022.


In China, SMIC Liang Mengsong has long stated to the outside world that the research and development tasks of 7nm chips have already been completed, and risk mass production will soon be possible, but then there is no news.

Finally, SMIC responded positively!
I thought that SMIC would be so silent forever, but what I didn't expect was that SMIC officially released its financial report for the second quarter of 2021. What we saw was not only a significant increase in revenue and profit, but also SMIC. The international also officially responded to 7nm.
Regarding 7nm, SMIC's response is coming

SMIC said that the FinFET process has reached production, with 15,000 pieces per month, customers continue to enter, and production capacity is tight.


Similar to 7nm chips are accelerating mass production, trial production, according to the news, SMIC has four FinFET technologies, mainly 14nm, 12nm, N+1 process and N+2 process.
It is reported that N+2 technology will be trial-produced by the end of this year, so now SMIC's important technology points are in 14nm, 12nm and N+1 technologies.

Regarding 7nm, SMIC's response is coming

Compared with the traditional technology, the N+1 technology increases the logic operation speed by 63%, and the performance and power consumption are greatly improved. Its process is very similar to the current 7nm process of TSMC, but it is somewhat insufficient in performance.

For this technology, Liang Mengsong directly stated that SMIC's N+1 technology is very similar to TSMC's 7nm technology. The biggest difference is that the main selling point of SMIC's N+1 technology is low power consumption.
Regarding 7nm, SMIC's response is coming

The main focus of N+2 technology is high performance. It can be seen that SMIC internally regards N+1 and N+2 technologies as the process for benchmarking 7nm chips, but N+2 technology will not be implemented until the end of this year. Trial production.
In addition, Liang Mengsong also expressed his views on the progress of semiconductors. He directly stated that there is no so-called corner overtaking in the semiconductor industry. It can only be done step by step. And Liang Mengsong's words also prove that SMIC is step by step. Go ahead and develop our own N+1 (7nm) process step by step.

Conclusion:​

Liang Mengsong's remarks finally let us see the development of the domestic chip field. As Liang Mengsong said, semiconductors have no leaps and bounds and can only develop step by step. At present, SMIC is also moving step by step, although at present The production capacity is small, but it is bound to increase in the future!
 

european_guy

Junior Member
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Here is a non-paywall version of the article.

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From the article:

"the products of Applied Materials, Lam Research and KLA in an attempt to identify workable export controls under which less advanced tools that are no use for cutting-edge manufacturing might still be sold to China, while more advanced tools would still be prohibited"

This won't work because less advanced tools from the American trio are already almost fully localized (etchers, CVD yes for sure)....and hence plan B:

"The proposal hinges on getting America’s allies—in particular Japan and the Netherlands, home to Tokyo Electron and ASML—to enforce the same export controls on their toolmakers."

They realized that if Japan end Europe keep selling their equipment, US alone can't get through it. In some ways it resembles what happened with Huawei, where after more than 1 year trying, at the end only forcing TSMC, a non US company, to stop producing for Huawei, proved effective.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
@ansy1968 great news, I am assuming that N +1 now in mass production or still in trial ?
@antiterror13 Sir the trial is for N+2, the article is a summary of SMIC activity last year and the progress it had achieved. N+1 we know had achieved trial production in 2020 and maybe a portion of 15.000 WPM last year is N+1. And from @WTAN and @Skywatcher N+1 is a 8nm chip disguised as 14nm to escape sanction, we may see it in N+2 as well a 14nm chip with 7nm performance, SMIC will never revealed the processes it use in developing N+1 and N+2...lol

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Oct 15, 2020 — According to SMIC, when compared to its 14 nm node, its N+1 technology can improve performance by up to 20% (at the same clocks and complexity) .
 
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