Chinese semiconductor industry

Status
Not open for further replies.

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
From a boom in 2022 to glut in 2024/25 when all those new FAB comes to operation, We're being forewarned by Market Watch article below, with geopolitical tension we may see the industries divided into 2 blocs, the Collective West and China with the ROW. So who will prevail, a betting man will say Follow the Market and Dammed the rest BUT for the Chinese, Tech independence above all else and let the market sorted it out...lol (meaning we can flood the market and gift the West a noose to hang themselves)


Semiconductor sales
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, yet chip stocks have lost nearly a quarter of their value this year and one analyst calls the sector “almost uninvestable.”

The PHLX Semiconductor Index
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
which hit a record high of 4,039.51 on Dec. 27, fell 13% over the first quarter of 2022, and as of Monday, is down about 24% year to date, putting it firmly in bear market territory. On Friday, the SOX index closed at 2,989.83, the first time it closed below 3,000 since May 19 of last year, as previously hot stocks like Nvidia Corp.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and Advanced Micro Devices Inc.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
have fallen more than 30% in 2022.
That type of selloff would normally signal a buying opportunity in chip stocks, especially since most analysts are expecting another record-breaking beat-and-raise quarter from the sector. That is not what Wall Street analysts are saying, however.
The basic fear is that semiconductor companies are set up for a replay of 2018, when the chip sector entered the year on fire across the board, with stocks at record highs and increasing chip prices driving record sales. That led customers to double- and triple-buy chips before prices got even higher, leading to a glut when demand ground to a halt and saddling chip makers with inventory that took several quarters to unload as their stocks sank.
Evercore ISI analyst C.J. Muse recently wrote that investors are waiting for chip executives to predict that supply is going to overtake demand and cut their forecasts. That makes the short-term outlook murky or worse, he wrote.
“From an investment perspective, semiconductor stocks are almost uninvestable today,” Muse wrote in a recent note. “Investors want to buy the ‘cut,’ but that ‘cut’ may not happen until 2H22 at the earliest.”
“So we are left guessing whether near-term fundamentals matter (they didn’t for Micron) or whether the market will continue to wait for the coming inventory correction,” Muse said. Micron Technology Inc.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
shares have dropped more than 15% since the end of March, when the memory-chip maker reported
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
.
“Our sense is violent swings will be the new norm (both up and down) until we gain line of sight to whether we will see a soft or hard landing,” Muse said.

Raymond James analyst Chris Caso also sees the potential for another 2018 in the current moment, with no sight of the end of the shortage as customers continue to order, but potential for oversupply on the other side.

Investing Insights with Global Context​

Understand how today’s global business practices, market dynamics, economic policies and more impact you with real-time news and analysis from MarketWatch.

“Our main concern is that the tight supply conditions and long lead times will disrupt the demand signals from the market, making it difficult for the semi supply chain to adjust production forecasts and capacity plans if and when demand changes,” Caso said in a recent note.
There are “three ingredients to a cyclical downturn: inventory, excess capacity and a demand slowdown. We have at least one — inventory,” Caso said.
“We don’t think there’s excess capacity now,” Caso said. “But capacity is being added, and could create a problem down the road. Our main concern is that the current shortages create a strong incentive to build excess inventory and capacity until customers are certain that they don’t need the product.”
Even as manufacturers complain that they could make and sell more things if only they had the microchips needed to finish those products, all chips are not created equal. If a manufacturer has a cutting-edge CPU that goes into a product but can’t get the $1 microprocessor that is also needed to finish it, then chip inventories become uneven.
That dynamic hasn’t mattered much as consumer demand for the finished product has remained high, but that may not be the case anymore, especially for personal computers. A downturn in PC sales is now happening, after consumers and businesses stocked up on new computers during the first two years of the COVID-19 pandemic and may not need to buy more.
For more:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

The confusing semiconductor-sector setup will be tested this week, with a slew of after-the-closing-bell earnings reports scheduled. Texas Instruments Inc.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
reports on Tuesday, Qualcomm Inc.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
on Wednesday, and Intel Corp.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
on Thursday, an assortment that should provide a good survey of the chip landscape — Texas Instruments is known for their analog chips, Qualcomm for their mobile device chips, and Intel for CPUs.
Two companies to watch for signals about PCs and the rest of the market are Texas Instruments and Intel, Citi Research analyst Christopher Danley wrote in a recent note.
“We expect consensus estimates to go up again during 1Q22 earnings season given extended lead times and higher pricing,” Danley said. “While we believe the upturn is in the late innings, we remain positive on the group until we see lead times decline.”
“Our main concerns are the impending PC downturn and a shift in investor sentiment to a more negative bias which could make it difficult for stocks to reach new highs until a correction,” Danley said. “We believe the likelihood of a PC slowdown in 2H22 is increasing and would be negative for the group as PCs are roughly 30% of semi demand. We expect below-seasonal guidance for Intel and Texas Instruments.”

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!




Why semiconductor stocks are 'almost uninvestable' despite record earnings amid a global shortage. Published: April 25, 2022 at 2:35 p.m. ET.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
The semi industry is headed for a massive crash. Unless there is something that disrupts supply all the fab construction will lead to overcapacity and massive drop in prices. A lot of semi companies will go bankrupt. I told you guys that chip prices would go down this year or next. Well the prices of CPUs and GPUs are already crashing. Try looking at the price of AMD CPUs for example. Some are close to half of original retail price. The GPUs have come back to around original retail price. And they will probably come down in price further.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Those are just a couple of examples. Loads of additional fab capacity will come online late this year as well. At a time consumer demand is crashing. The industry always has had its up and down cycles but I think this one will be especially violent.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
The semi industry is headed for a massive crash. Unless there is something that disrupts supply all the fab construction will lead to overcapacity and massive drop in prices. A lot of semi companies will go bankrupt. I told you guys that chip prices would go down this year or next. Well the prices of CPUs and GPUs are already crashing. Try looking at the price of AMD CPUs for example. Some are close to half of original retail price. The GPUs have come back to around original retail price. And they will probably come down in price further.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Those are just a couple of examples. Loads of additional fab capacity will come online late this year as well. At a time consumer demand is crashing. The industry always has had its up and down cycles but I think this one will be especially violent.
@gelgoog Bro will they cancelled the Arizona FAB or it will be dictated by Geopolitics.
 

Coalescence

Senior Member
Registered Member
@gelgoog Bro will they cancelled the Arizona FAB or it will be dictated by Geopolitics.
They'll probably still carry on building the Arizona Fab because for "national security", with or without TSMC's help lol. I can't wait when the gluts hit, prices for processors core and video cards are gonna go for cheap, it will be a good time to build a new pc or buy a new laptop.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
It will be built. The question is when will it enter operation and reach mass production.
Also notice it was originally planned as a 5nm fab and TSMC is already going to sell 4nm chips this year.
NVIDIA H100 GPU for workstations to be released this year will be 4nm.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Article also states Qualcomm Snapdragon 8 expected to be released next year will use TSMC 3nm process.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
It will be built. The question is when will it enter operation and reach mass production.
Also notice it was originally planned as a 5nm fab and TSMC is already going to sell 4nm chips this year.
NVIDIA GPU to be released this year will be 4nm.
@gelgoog bro TSMC 4nm is a glorify 5nm. TSMC plans to launch 4nm (N4) technology, an enhanced version of N5 technology. N4 provides further enhancement in performance, power and density for the next wave of N5 products. The development of N4 technology is on schedule with good progress, and volume production is expected to start in 2022.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!




Jun 9, 2020 — According to the plan, TSMC will mass-produce the first generation of 5nm in the fourth quarter of this year. The company has also completed the ...
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Sure. I think TSMC made like two iterations in 5nm process and 4nm is basically a way for companies to shrink their processors with minimal design changes from what I heard. Even when TSMC's 3nm comes out it won't have GAA transistors supposedly.
GAA transistors will be the next big leap in power consumption reduction.
The question is who will use this 5nm fab? Who will order production explicitly to be made on it. Without massive subsidies I doubt TSMC will charge the same prices on US fab.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
@gelgoog bro the vulnerable companies are TSMC and Samsung? cause they over invest in advance node? From my understanding of TSMC strategy they will seek subsidies and leverage their expertise, with high profit margin, they may absorb some losses BUT will not be bankrupt , the same with Samsung with their internal demand alone can suffice, so is SMIC, China national champion and a critical player in made in China campaign. While Intel is synonymous with America, it's their pride and joy, so who will be affected, Glofo? Texas Instrument?
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Samsung is in deep trouble because of the yields scandal and loss of major customers like NVIDIA.
Samsung is also betting on 3nm with GAA which is going to be a though nut to crack. It will only compound on their yields issues.
But like you said they have their own consumer and product divisions and Samsung is more than just a foundry.

I think GlobalFoundries is presently headed into a direction where their future as an ongoing concern is highly questionable.
Previously they were considered a major player in Europe. So they got funding from the German government. But with Intel's plant at Magdeburg now taking the spotlight GlobalFoundries might lose funding and start shuttering operations. I think they made a major mistake in pulling out of their Chengdu fab deal. Had they put it into operation it would have come online right before the global semiconductor shortage and easily paid itself back many times over. They need to go into EUV but unless the Emiratis dump more tens of billions into it this will not happen. Singapore will have to decide if they want to continue to play the semiconductor game and finance GlobalFoundries operations there. GlobalFoundries also have no customers left anymore to push the node resolution further down. I think they will shrivel just like what you see with STMicro. STMicro as the last true European semiconductor champion will also likely take a hit. Similar to GlobalFoundries they will likely get the short end of the stick with regards to EU funding. A major mistake by EU leadership I think.

There is overcapacity brewing up at the 28nm node. I think all the companies which made large investments into 28nm, and this includes SMIC and TSMC, will take a hit. A lot of products will move into 16nm or 7nm now that yields are up and capacity is freed up as high end moves to 5nm in volume and whatever products go into 28nm will likely be low priced ones. UMC is also still stuck at 14nm and most of their production is 28nm. So I don't know how well they will do.

I am also not that well informed on the memory market. But if it gets into a glut, and right now I think the next generation DRAM and NAND Flash is coming online, whichever fabs are still on the last node will be in a deep race to be bottom kind of downwards spiral cycle as always happens. The Chinese memory companies in particular will be vulnerable as they are still growing and they are still stuck at older nodes for several reasons including the US tools embargos and lack of capital. This will be a critical time since they will have to survive the shakedown which happens in every memory industry down cycle. A lot of the Taiwanese companies did not survive. European memory industry is dead. And Japanese memory industry might go the same route long term.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
There is overcapacity brewing up at the 28nm node. I think all the companies which made large investments into 28nm, and this includes SMIC and TSMC, will take a hit. A lot of products will move into 16nm or 7nm now that yields are up and capacity is freed up as high end moves to 5nm in volume and whatever products go into 28nm will likely be low priced ones. UMC is also still stuck at 14nm and most of their production is 28nm. So I don't know how well they will do.

This is a major prospect I've been sitting on for a while too.

The question being -- by the time that SSA800 and the domestic 28nm supply chain and machinery are ready for commercial production and use by domestic Chinese companies including SMIC, would the production of 28nm node even be profitable? I suppose being a supplier for domestic companies and users who otherwise couldn't acquire 28nm nodes would still be very useful, and with multipatterning they could attain 14nm and give them some breathing space.

And in a national security and technological sanctioning context, continued 28nm production (or 14nm with multi patterning) is still essential.


But the question about whether SMIC and others are able to stay relatively profitable and expand and advance in context of a potential industry scale oversupply at the 28nm node, and get through to be able to reap the intended emergence of equipment allowing them to produce more advanced nodes, is something to consider.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top