Well it’s a somber assessment. Some may not like it but it’s always good to be grounded and not set expectations too high and be over optimistic. Where do you work now? Did you work for SMIC before or in a Chinese semi company? Since you have so many contact.Yeah. I don't think this technology is ready for production. Definitely won't be ready by 2025.
Besides,
All your points are valid. I can see why you would suspect what I'm saying.
We can wait until the end of this year to see if there's any confirmation of SMEE's immersion system in production. Then you can judge if I'm speaking the truth or just spreading my own speculations.
So far, I would take what's shared in this forum with a grain of salt and lean toward my assessments. That is, unless someone you all believe to be credible and have semiconductor experience can provide different insight, then I think for the time being I will believe what I had compiled from my industry source.
Again, just sharing my opinion just like the rest of you. Feel free to draw from it or dismiss it.
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Chinese semiconductor industry
- Thread starter Hendrik_2000
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For those of you that doubt my expertise, you are welcome to ask me about semiconductor fab technology.Well it’s a somber assessment. Some may not like it but it’s always good to be grounded and not set expectations too high and be over optimistic. Where do you work now? Did you work for SMIC before or in a Chinese semi company? Since you have so many contact.
I had worked for the largest foundry in the world and a major American memory fab. Now I’m with an American fab equipment company located in Taiwan.Well it’s a somber assessment. Some may not like it but it’s always good to be grounded and not set expectations too high and be over optimistic. Where do you work now? Did you work for SMIC before or in a Chinese semi company? Since you have so many contact.
I wouldn’t claim I have a lot of contacts but I do know a few people that China poached from Taiwan.
I’m not insisting that my views are right that why I’m here to cross check/reference views here. But, may I remind you that if your source are from l media/articles then you have to consider how accurate these information are or if authors of these articles know what they are talking about.
You are free to believe what you read just like i am leaning to believe my contacts. If I learn something that is different from my view, i will use it to help guide me on what I need to go verify. That’s what I plan to do. I will not attack your views like some of you are doing to me. This is just how I roll.
Why? Hopefully I am not going too off topic here.Because they generally get banned fairly quickly
When do you estimate SMEE will be able to produce a proper domestic 28nm DUVL machine?For those of you that doubt my expertise, you are welcome to ask me about semiconductor fab technology.
I’m not insisting that my views are right that why I’m here to cross check/reference views here. But, may I remind you that if your source are from l media/articles then you have to consider how accurate these information are or if authors of these articles know what they are talking about.
You are free to believe what you read just like i am leaning to believe my contacts. If I learn something that is different from my view, i will use it to help guide me on what I need to go verify. That’s what I plan to do. I will not attack your views like some of you are doing to me. This is just how I roll.
@hvpc bro don't want to be a smart aleck, I'm not an expert BUT an enthusiast so from the company profile itself and please read the bold part. Note even reach below 14nm, Huawei collaboration is meant to fast track its 20nm chip production and since they have proclaim the Return of the king in 2023, that hint may precipitate the launching of Hisilicon 14nm 3D chiplet for Huawei midrange phone. And since it's China premier IC research agency, we can be sure that SMIC, Shanghai Synchrotron, Hisilicon, CAS and other gov't institution will cooperate and collaborate. It's a whole nation approach as stated by the maestro itself XJP, with Liu HE as the task master, I'm sure ICRD will play an important part.Yes. I know ICRD.
This news is true based on what I know. I was told ICRD will even buy an asml system to help qualify domestic system (I think this means SMEE's immersion system). But ICRD is a research center, will not have enough capacity to support Huawei's chip needs. I think ICRD should have no trouble with 28nm process...but they do not have experience with 16nm or below...YET.
ICRD Company Profile
Shanghai Integrated Circuit R&D Center Co., Ltd. ( ICRD ) was established in 2002. It is a state-level integrated circuit R&D center supported by the state to establish and cooperate with production, education and research. ICRD was formed by the joint investment of China’s integrated circuit-related enterprise groups and universities. It is an independent public R&D institution open to integrated circuit companies, universities and research institutes in the whole industry.The Shanghai Integrated Circuit R&D Center focuses on mainstream integrated circuit technology routes, and is committed to solving major common technology research and development and service support issues. The main functions of ICRD include: providing integrated circuit companies and R&D units with advanced device and process technology preliminary research and development and product-level verification; providing integrated circuit equipment and materials with development to online verification and process support; providing knowledge for integrated circuit production line upgrades Transfer of property rights and technology; provide special technology and share IP core services for design companies to develop chips ; provide enterprises and universities with a training base for training integrated circuit professional and technical personnel and high-skilled personnel.
The Shanghai Integrated Circuit R&D Center is located in Zhangjiang Hi-Tech Park, Shanghai, adjacent to Huali Microelectronics and SMIC. ICRD has the most advanced 12 -inch open integrated circuit advanced technology research and development and equipment material test platform in China, with a purification area of more than 3000 square meters. The research and development environment and management system are fully matched with the large production line, which can realize the contamination-free in and out of silicon wafers and processes The processes are seamlessly connected, speeding up the speed of technology research and development and verification. ICRD has immersed 193nm lithography machine,
silicon etching machine, atomic layer thin film growth ( ALD ), high-energy ion implanter, and a full set of advanced process equipment such as copper interconnection and Low-K . The process research and development capability can reach below 14 nanometers.
The Shanghai Integrated Circuit R&D Center has an international research team, and has cultivated and trained a R&D team with process technology improvement capabilities through domestic and foreign industrial cooperation. ICRD has mastered the process technology and intellectual property rights of multiple technology generations; through the establishment of industry common technology research and development projects, joint research and development of FinFET devices and processes, nanowire transistors below 5nm and other new devices and process technologies; development of industry-university-research cooperation, research and development Cutting-edge technologies and products such as transistor-level 3D stacking and quantum dot sensors. At the same time, ICRD has established the best integrated circuit talent training base in China through continuous improvement of equipment and facilities and strengthening international cooperation, which is open to the entire industry and universities.
The Shanghai Integrated Circuit R&D Center is also actively exploring the path to internationalization and continuously enhancing its international influence. In addition to co-establishing global talent training centers with multinational companies such as ASML , ICRD has also established advanced technology research and development joint laboratories in cooperation with IMEC , ASML-Brion , Synopsys , Applied Materials, Panlin and other multinational companies, and established joint laboratories with internationally renowned universities. There are ongoing joint research projects.
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I think "proper" is a loaded word.When do you estimate SMEE will be able to produce a proper domestic 28nm DUVL machine?
Some on this forum suggests SMEE had already multiple shipped immersion systems. My understanding is different.
SMEE has not shipped any FEOL systems. But later this year will ship a couple of iLine and KrF systems. As for immersion system, upside is to ship it before the end of this year. But more realistically, I'm told it's more likely the immersion system ships in 2023.
In terms of what "proper" is. If this means able to enable preliminary integration effort of all scanner wavelengths then I think the first iteration with shipment in 2023 should suffice. But if "proper" means enable foundries/fabs to run the tools seamlessly in production for 28nm, I think it may take another year or two for SMIC/ICRD to provide feedback and for SMEE to implement new production-related options/features.
Above based on insights I received....not from articles circulating on the internet. Please take the above with a grain of salt and check against your other info sources as required.
HH Grace semiconductor, HLMC, and ICRD are all part of Huahong group. Despite the company profile, ICRD has not demonstrated any capability beyond 28nm production.@hvpc bro don't want to be a smart aleck, I'm not an expert BUT an enthusiast so from the company profile itself and please read the bold part. Note even reach below 14nm, Huawei collaboration is meant to fast track its 20nm chip production and since they have proclaim the Return of the king in 2023, that hint may precipitate the launching of Hisilicon 14nm 3D chiplet for Huawei midrange phone. And since it's China premier IC research agency, we can be sure that SMIC, Shanghai Synchrotron, Hisilicon, CAS and other gov't institution will cooperate and collaborate. It's a whole nation approach as stated by the maestro itself XJP, with Liu HE as the task master, I'm sure ICRD will play an important part.
ICRD Company Profile
Shanghai Integrated Circuit R&D Center Co., Ltd. ( ICRD ) was established in 2002. It is a state-level integrated circuit R&D center supported by the state to establish and cooperate with production, education and research. ICRD was formed by the joint investment of China’s integrated circuit-related enterprise groups and universities. It is an independent public R&D institution open to integrated circuit companies, universities and research institutes in the whole industry.
The Shanghai Integrated Circuit R&D Center focuses on mainstream integrated circuit technology routes, and is committed to solving major common technology research and development and service support issues. The main functions of ICRD include: providing integrated circuit companies and R&D units with advanced device and process technology preliminary research and development and product-level verification; providing integrated circuit equipment and materials with development to online verification and process support; providing knowledge for integrated circuit production line upgrades Transfer of property rights and technology; provide special technology and share IP core services for design companies to develop chips ; provide enterprises and universities with a training base for training integrated circuit professional and technical personnel and high-skilled personnel.
The Shanghai Integrated Circuit R&D Center is located in Zhangjiang Hi-Tech Park, Shanghai, adjacent to Huali Microelectronics and SMIC. ICRD has the most advanced 12 -inch open integrated circuit advanced technology research and development and equipment material test platform in China, with a purification area of more than 3000 square meters. The research and development environment and management system are fully matched with the large production line, which can realize the contamination-free in and out of silicon wafers and processes The processes are seamlessly connected, speeding up the speed of technology research and development and verification. ICRD has immersed 193nm lithography machine,
silicon etching machine, atomic layer thin film growth ( ALD ), high-energy ion implanter, and a full set of advanced process equipment such as copper interconnection and Low-K . The process research and development capability can reach below 14 nanometers.
The Shanghai Integrated Circuit R&D Center has an international research team, and has cultivated and trained a R&D team with process technology improvement capabilities through domestic and foreign industrial cooperation. ICRD has mastered the process technology and intellectual property rights of multiple technology generations; through the establishment of industry common technology research and development projects, joint research and development of FinFET devices and processes, nanowire transistors below 5nm and other new devices and process technologies; development of industry-university-research cooperation, research and development Cutting-edge technologies and products such as transistor-level 3D stacking and quantum dot sensors. At the same time, ICRD has established the best integrated circuit talent training base in China through continuous improvement of equipment and facilities and strengthening international cooperation, which is open to the entire industry and universities.
The Shanghai Integrated Circuit R&D Center is also actively exploring the path to internationalization and continuously enhancing its international influence. In addition to co-establishing global talent training centers with multinational companies such as ASML , ICRD has also established advanced technology research and development joint laboratories in cooperation with IMEC , ASML-Brion , Synopsys , Applied Materials, Panlin and other multinational companies, and established joint laboratories with internationally renowned universities. There are ongoing joint research projects.
One major ICRD's charter is to help integrate, test, feedback to optimize domestic fabrication systems at 28nm by 2025. This means ICRD will take on SMEE's immersion system in ~2023 and try to produce wafers in volume production setting along with other process, metrology, inspection systems. Why target 28nm? Because up to 28nm and even 22nm are planar and not into the FINFET process (which starts at 20nm and below). If the goal is to help build up the domestic WFE ecosystem, it's more reasonable to conduct the initial integration/learning at a more mature and easier process.
Like I mentioned earlier, I think ICRD has even bought an asml immersion system to help with their charter. I think it's to be used for SMEE immersion to benchmark against, and also to help fine tune other process/metrology/inspection tool. No one is expecting SMEE immersion to work optimally immediately, so asml immersion system has to be used to enable testing of non-litho systems while SMEE immersion litho system is been optimized.
As you can imagine, this would require a lot of effort and attention. So I would guess ICRD would not distract themselves by adding developing 14nm process to their immediate to-do list. Besides, to do 14nm with domestic tools, they first have to make sure all system could meet performance requirement at 28nm first.
So.....if all goes according to Chinese government's plan, 28nm wafer production capability with only domestically WFE tools by 2025. Then, 14nm with domestic WFE takes another 4-8 quarters. This would be the assessment based on what we know today.
HH Grace semiconductor, HLMC, and ICRD are all part of Huahong group. Despite the company profile, ICRD has not demonstrated any capability beyond 28nm production.
One major ICRD's charter is to help integrate, test, feedback to optimize domestic fabrication systems at 28nm by 2025. This means ICRD will take on SMEE's immersion system in ~2023 and try to produce wafers in volume production setting along with other process, metrology, inspection systems. Why target 28nm? Because up to 28nm and even 22nm are planar and not into the FINFET process (which starts at 20nm and below). If the goal is to help build up the domestic WFE ecosystem, it's more reasonable to conduct the initial integration/learning at a more mature and easier process.
Like I mentioned earlier, I think ICRD has even bought an asml immersion system to help with their charter. I think it's to be used for SMEE immersion to benchmark against, and also to help fine tune other process/metrology/inspection tool. No one is expecting SMEE immersion to work optimally immediately, so asml immersion system has to be used to enable testing of non-litho systems while SMEE immersion litho system is been optimized.
As you can imagine, this would require a lot of effort and attention. So I would guess ICRD would not distract themselves by adding developing 14nm process to their immediate to-do list. Besides, to do 14nm with domestic tools, they first have to make sure all system could meet performance requirement at 28nm first.
So.....if all goes according to Chinese government's plan, 28nm wafer production capability with only domestically WFE tools by 2025. Then, 14nm with domestic WFE takes another 4-8 quarters. This would be the assessment based on what we know today.
That sounds about right to me.
Then the next question is how many 28nm fabs they will start mass-producing every year.
This is really my first day in this forum since I signed-up long time ago. I would know. I know for a fact I didn't log-in and stalk you guys for a year then started to make comment today. But, again, I can't stop you from believing what you want.I hope you don't imagine that because some members have indulged your FUD spreading that you have any credibility here. It's highly suspicious to say the least that you signed up in December 2020 to a defense forum and stayed silent for a year and change, then chose to make your first posts in a marginal thread (by the way, setting your profile to private won't help you, we can still search for posts by member and see your posts no matter your settings). Furthermore, your FUD directly contradicts members who have proved their credibility time and again by posting well-vetted rumours that have eventually proved true.
You claim to have 30 years of experience in the industry and are in touch with insiders all over. Well... put up or shut up. Prove you are who you say you are by posting proof of your identity and work history. I'm sure it's a fascinating one given your journey from 0.35um all the way down to 3nm. If you're concerned about making your identity public, the moderators here are trustworthy people - I'm sure you could relay this information to one of them in private and they could vouch for you.
Until you prove you are who you say you are, you're just another internet rando with tall tales.
But could turn this around and ask what is your credential to make you so upset and against information I shared? Why do you think your info is more accurate than mine? Is your push back merely based on your feeling? On educated analysis of data at hand? Or based on "facts" you read from some articles you find online? I personally find most articles to be only partially accurate because they are written by layman and not from people with actual fab experience.
I'm more than happy to discuss technical merits of semiconductor chip fabrication process with you. I'm sure I have lots of info that most of you do not have. if you do know more than me, then I'm happy to learn from you. Conversely, if I'm more of an expert on this matter, then perhaps you could give what i have to say more credit and even reference it in your assessment of the semiconductor industry situation in China?
Again, stop with the conspiracy theory and the personal attack. Just share info peacefully and you can decide for yourself if or how much of what i say you chose to believe or not.
I am just as skeptical.Also, I was told SMEE has no system in production, excluding backend applications. Not even their iLine system. So I don't understand how they could jump from having no system in frontend IC manufacturing to having the capability to ship a production worthy 28nm system? Maybe I'm just too conservative, but could someone help me understand why there's so much optimism here for Chinese domestic DUV and even EUV system by 2025? Everyone I talked to in the industry are not so optimistic...even those in China.
In the news yesterday, Hikvision is buying a second hand ASML's AT:850C system (248nm KrF laser), because no domestic substitute is available:
Since early last year I was reading on this forum that a domestic DUV immersion system capable of 28nm is just around the corner (I think it was supposed to already ship by now?), but here we have a Chinese company buying 20 year old technology initially used for 110nm production and later below that. Yet, we are to believe that EUV is just 3 years away?
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