Chinese semiconductor industry

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ansy1968

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horse said:
You know what brother? Happy New Year! I think we said that already, but who cares, we can say it again!

Just my speculation about this IC thingy with the EUV, that if China tried to copy what the ASML machine could do, then I think it would have taken forever for them to make an EUV machine.

If the Chinese decided to just go try on their own, and forget about ASML, and if they should have a breakthrough, then I think it would be very fast for them to build an EUV.
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And a Happy new Year to you too bro, Right and it's just basic science and engineering PLUS investment, I always like to quote our esteem member @BoraTas "Physic is the same in Amsterdam as in Beijing", It's man made therefore achievable.
horse said:
In the former process, they would need to know every secret ingredient there is to make that work, and those are tightly guarded trade secrets.

If they go out on their own and try to do it and breakthrough, then just keep going with it. It's strange, but once on the right track, it keeps going.

The report earlier today published on New Year's from a Chinese translation, claims breakthroughs in core technologies in EUV, a couple of which were reported on state media in China.

The question is to what to make of this plan? Is it just a theoretical plan drawn on a napkin? Or is it a real plan that they will pursue, because the science is there?

If it was back of a napkin, then that plan is 30% done or lower.

But now, I would have to think this plan reported today, that is around 50%. If it tips further, then it is real.

They said that something was reported on TV. If they saw it on TV, it has to be true, as that movie said.

:D
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@horse right on bro, China already had the critical parts needed (optics and lenses), the only problem are the light sources and end user feedback. They had cover all grounds regarding the former, with DPP, LPP and now SSMB. It maybe wasteful BUT it's better than spending on speculative finance and real estate. And those R&D is a breeding ground for the new generation of engineers.
 
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ansy1968

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To the experts what is a EULER System? And Intel joining Huawei's Euler system is a good thing? Will it violated the US restriction against Huawei? or a strategy by Intel to prolong the dominance of X86 architecture against ARM and RISC-V? What will Huawei gain from this?

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2K views11 hours ago

An exciting news that Intel have been entering Huawei's Euler system sparked a heated debate. Apparently, it is very beneficial for Huawei to make a further development in its system, and more importantly, it is going to take the Huawei Euler system to the higher level even exceeding the Microsoft. As a matter of fact, we believed that with the powerful partnership of the Intel, Euler system continued to complete its own development and optimization, got better and better in the future, and eventually made it to the market competitiveness of the Euler system. It is well-known that in terms of operating systems, Microsoft owned 87.59% of China's market. For this reason, China is trying it best to achieve developing the Harmony system and the Euler system independently. In fact, it has been widely used in Euler system by many domestic manufacturers in China thanks to Huawei's operating system. However, recently, another US company has access to the Huawei ecosystem.
 
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latenlazy

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gelgoog said:
The theory is public, but the devil is in the details. Knowing the public details would be enough to speed up research somewhat but EUV is way, way, more complicated than DUV. There are no EUV machines in operation in China they can examine either.

DUV already is available for inspection in China but EUV is totally different. And you can't say it is just a matter of the light source. The way the light source itself operates is totally different from DUV. You need to hit tin droplets in flight with laser pulses. The way the light is focused is totally different with mirrors instead of lenses, once again a different skillset.

The mask materials and the resist aren't the same either.
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Technically not true. Changchun Institute of Optics built an EUV verification instrument a few years back. So they’re clearly not jumping into EUV lithography from the cold.
 
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HereToSeePics

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ansy1968 said:
To the experts what is a EULER System? And Intel joining Huawei's Euler system is a good thing? Will it violated the US restriction against Huawei? or a strategy by Intel to prolong the dominance of X86 architecture against ARM and RISC-V? What will Huawei gain from this?

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2K views11 hours ago

An exciting news that Intel have been entering Huawei's Euler system sparked a heated debate. Apparently, it is very beneficial for Huawei to make a further development in its system, and more importantly, it is going to take the Huawei Euler system to the higher level even exceeding the Microsoft. As a matter of fact, we believed that with the powerful partnership of the Intel, Euler system continued to complete its own development and optimization, got better and better in the future, and eventually made it to the market competitiveness of the Euler system. It is well-known that in terms of operating systems, Microsoft owned 87.59% of China's market. For this reason, China is trying it best to achieve developing the Harmony system and the Euler system independently. In fact, it has been widely used in Euler system by many domestic manufacturers in China thanks to Huawei's operating system. However, recently, another US company has access to the Huawei ecosystem.
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The devil is in the details of what exactly they mean by "partnership", it could be "big news" or it could be insignificant. Huawei's Open Euler is more or less an open source flavor of Linux that anyone can download, tweak and play around with the code. Intel - as a manufacture of CPUs have teams of engineers and developers downloading testing as many different operating systems and software configurations on their CPUs as possible. It's naturally in Intel's best interest to say their CPU's can run as many different brands of Operating Systems as possible. So it's possible that the partnership simply entails nothing more than Intel getting the rights to slap a "compatible with OpenEuler" on their CPUs just same way they they list compatibility with MacOs, RedHat, Slackware, CentOS, Debian, etc. There could be no actual money involvement or engineering exchange.
 
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antiterror13

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tokenanalyst

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caudaceus said:
This true?
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477818041572360193
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First. Source?
Second. Define "didn't succeed". What was unsuccessful? performance? 200 WPH instead of 250 WPH? Precision? 50 nm instead of 28 nm? Didn't it work at all? Again, define "didn't succeed".
A post here says they compared it to the latest ASML 2000i and 1980i models, according to that "source" it did well against the 1980i but failed against the 2000i, if that's true it's still a win in my definition.
Personally the only thing i now from official sources is that they are making a commercially viable immersion lithography machine (28nm), from here is just waiting until SMEE announce the machine officially.
 
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MortyandRick

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caudaceus said:
This true?
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1477818041572360193
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That’s unfortunate. I hope this doesn’t become like the COMAC C919 when we expect it to come out anytime but keeps getting delayed. Do you guys think this was what the other older nationalist was referring to on Weibo urging China not to decouple and even suffer humiliation to prevent decoupling? I wonder if he said it because he felt China is behind and is testing the waters to allow the government to concede on some aspects in the future.

this directly contradicts Tom fowdy saying EUV coming in 2023.
 
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gelgoog

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I doubt we would hear of it on the SSME site that soon. Given the sanctions and their initial limited production.
The sanctions would not impact their supply situation but might hamper their clients. Who knows which sanctions the US would use.

It takes time to do these sorts of machine tools and it would require massive investment and multiple concurrent efforts on the level of the ones on the atomic bomb program to make up the lag in technology up to EUV. Yes it is that hard.

I think they will eventually get the immersion lithography DUV machine working, as well as the EUV one, the question is will it be soon enough to have an impact or not.
 
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