Reasonable deduction. Also from how the Chinese officially do things, it is understandable why he didn't mention this because it was a public-domain presentation and they just don't talk about collecting foreign intel.
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Chinese Radar Developments - KLJ series and others
- Thread starter indochina
- Start date
Reasonable deduction. Also from how the Chinese officially do things, it is understandable why he didn't mention this because it was a public-domain presentation and they just don't talk about collecting foreign intel.
Exactly. Process of elimination makes this one pretty easy. All they needed to know was that the signature movement profile was a plane and that it wasn’t detectable by any other radar. But even without all that they must’ve already done RCS studies on the F-22 to get a general sense of its signature fingerprint.Well, when the initial slides were posted, the poster claimed all other Radars were unable to detect that particular target. In the region that leaves the F-22 and F-35 right now. Back in 2013, I am not sure how many F-35 were in the region. Other predominant aircraft in the region would be F/A-18E/F, F-15J, F-15K. We could also include F-2, F-16C/D, Mirage 2K5, F-CK-.1 By now China's SIGINT systems would know the signatures of the 4th gen aircraft types.
I don't remember reading about anything citing "600 km"... Here're two photos I saved (can't retrieve the others, sorry).
View attachment 50493
View attachment 50492
Top left presentation contain a db-frequency curve.
Showing a data point at VHF with 0 db, and another data point at X band with -20 db.
The next slide is from this book
Page 627/628
Chapter :"Height finding and 3D radar"
This part discuss how to fin out the target elevation with monopulse radar.
The reason why the jlc-8 is so high (Compared to NEBO-M, 20 vertical element vs 7) is because they want to use that for monopulse height finding.
Interesting, the equation with multipath reflection gives something like 0.5-2.5 km error for 500 km, for 0.2-1 "normalised monopulse sensitivity factor".
Only in that case if the aperture is the 20 λ , if it is 7 λ then the error will be threefold.
Only in that case if the aperture is the 20 λ , if it is 7 λ then the error will be threefold.
This is not the first time. And I don't see much surprise or secretive purpose. Last time it was a nation wide military education program delivered to many universities and state institutes that includes revelation of something like "near space hypersonic anti-ship missile", "ship-borne anti-ship ballistic missile" or "mini-nuclear sub" etc. That was in 2017. Then there was another one delivered within one of the space institute claiming the live test of "anti-ship ballistic missile".It's rare for China to so publicly show such leakages since we know they carefully control what is said. Therefore there's a political element in allowing these "news" to be shown. Is it to warn the US and force them to upgrade their military strategies and force increased military spending, hindering public improvements and straining the budget? Is it true or made up for these purposes? If the former, does it hint at even greater abilities possessed by China because they seldom show stuff that isn't already years old while newer stuff's already out or close to finalised.
Like the recent Indian media claims of Su-30 MKI managing to spot and presumably track and target (since apparently J-20 will be easy to handle by what IAF already has), how on earth did these Chinese operators determine the tracked target is indeed a F-22 and wasn't wearing LL or had its RCS enhanced by some other means? All of these claims feel a bit iffy. Even so, it is the first time Chinese sources have leaked any serious military news with grand claims of this caliber. In the past, what was claimed has always been true wrt Chinese sources (at least I don't remember a single one that was sensationalised nonsense like the many Indian reports in recent years). Perhaps they are growing a bit confident and have more tricks up their sleeves.
China has a tradition of "internal education/information-sharing of state employee" since CPC was found in 1925. Depending on the rank, state employees and party members get internal information that is not available to commoners. These presentations are not very sensitive either, they are deployed systems but not publicly announced. Sharing information of their existence or rough capability with state employees are not surprise at all.
This is not the first time. And I don't see much surprise or secretive purpose. Last time it was a nation wide military education program delivered to many universities and state institutes that includes revelation of something like "near space hypersonic anti-ship missile", "ship-borne anti-ship ballistic missile" or "mini-nuclear sub" etc. That was in 2017. Then there was another one delivered within one of the space institute claiming the live test of "anti-ship ballistic missile".
China has a tradition of "internal education/information-sharing of state employee" since CPC was found in 1925. Depending on the rank, state employees and party members get internal information that is not available to commoners. These presentations are not very sensitive either, they are deployed systems but not publicly announced. Sharing information of their existence or rough capability with state employees are not surprise at all.
None with direct confrontation of the US. This claim mentions the supposed ability to detect and track F-22 from pretty long ranges. The existence of AShBM have been announced in the past. I don't know if those delivered talks were the first time they were revealed to select groups of the Chinese public but if those talks included an insistence that these different ballistic and hypersonic weapons can sink US carriers, then it would be a similar level of disclosing an ability and relating it to how it can be used with reference to specific targets.
I understand what you're saying though and it isn't the first time Chinese authorities allowed for the revelation of certain militarily sensitive things to the Chinese public. I think the difference here is the radar claim specifically mentions the F-22 and mentions the real time tracking of a particular USAF flagship fighter, in a more provocative way than those ballistic missile talks. They could have simply mentioned the radar is capable of tracking stealth fighters at long ranges. To me, providing those details suggests an intention to let the "other side" know. Sure this is leaked out to the internet and maybe they didn't plan on someone taking photos, or maybe they did.
You have to remember that the VHF radar is huge; probably around the same aperture as a naval radar. This is going to be challenging to scale to a point where you can reliably use it on a AEW&C craft.
Another problem is the B-2 and B-21 bombers. These are broadband stealth aircraft that can't be countered with VHF counter-stealth. You may need to go all the way to HF to be able to track them, and the B-21 likely will have AEW&C function.
Another problem is the B-2 and B-21 bombers. These are broadband stealth aircraft that can't be countered with VHF counter-stealth. You may need to go all the way to HF to be able to track them, and the B-21 likely will have AEW&C function.
This is not military sensitive data.None with direct confrontation of the US. This claim mentions the supposed ability to detect and track F-22 from pretty long ranges. The existence of AShBM have been announced in the past. I don't know if those delivered talks were the first time they were revealed to select groups of the Chinese public but if those talks included an insistence that these different ballistic and hypersonic weapons can sink US carriers, then it would be a similar level of disclosing an ability and relating it to how it can be used with reference to specific targets.
I understand what you're saying though and it isn't the first time Chinese authorities allowed for the revelation of certain militarily sensitive things to the Chinese public. I think the difference here is the radar claim specifically mentions the F-22 and mentions the real time tracking of a particular USAF flagship fighter, in a more provocative way than those ballistic missile talks. They could have simply mentioned the radar is capable of tracking stealth fighters at long ranges. To me, providing those details suggests an intention to let the "other side" know. Sure this is leaked out to the internet and maybe they didn't plan on someone taking photos, or maybe they did.
Having the picture of radar, and access to free online books the same analysis could be done.
It is easy to count the element number, and gives all other data.
That presentation contain public domain data, with textbook graphs ./equations.
And there was many claim from all side ( including USA in the 80s) abut detecting "stealth" from this distances with low frequency.
You have to remember that the VHF radar is huge; probably around the same aperture as a naval radar. This is going to be challenging to scale to a point where you can reliably use it on a AEW&C craft.
Another problem is the B-2 and B-21 bombers. These are broadband stealth aircraft that can't be countered with VHF counter-stealth. You may need to go all the way to HF to be able to track them, and the B-21 likely will have AEW&C function.
No one said that these aricrafts are not detectable by VHF.
These are bigger than the f35, with less small details, so I think the radar cross section of them in VHF should be the same.
The shaping of the b2/21 doesn't really matter, it is meter long, the coating too thin to give anything more than few db, from the radar standpoint the whole b2 is a big edge.
The USA hawkeye has VHF radar, and using multpath to calculate the range of the target.