Chinese purchase of Su-35

Engineer

Engineer

Major
coolieno99 said:
If this sale seem so illogical to many, it's because military sale were not meant to make a profit. It's for strategic planning or other political reasons. Look at the U.S. military sales to Israel. The U.S. gives Israel $ 3 billion worth of military weapons(new and advanced) FREE of charge every year. On the other hand, the U.S. (along with UK and France) would not sell a single bullet to China.
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Waving your hands in the air then say "strategic planning" and "political reasons" prove nothing. At the end of the day, no strategic or political reason can be given to justify the deal because there isn't any valid reason for the deal to occur. Strategically, even if China does buy the Su-35, the aircraft lacks Chinese avionics and cannot fit into Chinese support structure. The move does little to bolster China's defense. Politically, having one nation gives while the other takes, such as having China gives money to and pleases Russia in return for aircraft that cannot be used, is not a form of cooperation.

As to your example, what the US does is called giving tax payers' money to American arms industries. The money actually goes back into America's economy. Russia is not paying China to buy Russian weapons, and Chinese money wouldn't go back to the Chinese economy in this would-be Su-35 deal. Hence, you made an invalid comparison.
 
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L

LesAdieux

Junior Member
Engineer said:
The obstacle to future China-Russia cooperation doesn't come from China, but from Russia. Russia needs to step down from its pedestal and lose its false sense of superiority. Right now, Russian big-ticket items are losing competitiveness rapidly and sales of those items are dwindling. If Russia doesn't correct its attitude soon, then it will fall behind China and will have nothing to offer for cooperation in a few years time.
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agree, this is also the case in resources cooperation, where the russians got a false sense of importance.

china and russia have been talking about a big, big deal on gas for more than 10 years, it has gone nowhere.

russia wants to diversify away from europe, they think their massive gas reserve is crucial for china's development, so they insist china must pay all the bill to build the trans-siberia pipelines and network, which china accepts, they also insist the current "asian price" must stay, which china rejects. the so-called "asian price" is a discriminating price system which forces asia to pay a much higher price than europe.

the russians are very tough negotiators, drive hard bargain, and very patient, but they misjudged, and miscaculated on the gas deal. over the past 10 years, china has built two massive pipelines from central asia all the way to china's east coast, it has built a lot of LNG ships and facilities to transport gas from middle east. china's own exploration has discovered a lot reserve, and the final blow is from america: they've "discovered" the shale gas!
 
Curious George

Curious George

New Member
vesicles said:
Why can't the Russians take a bad deal for now in order to gain favors from the Chinese?
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That's just the kind of attitude that has to be broken in order to move things along (as if both sides shared that view then nothing will get done), if this deal does turn out to be true then China has taken the first step, and it is then up to Russia to reciprocate on a future deal. If however Russia keeps being "takers" and not take turns at being "givers" then I would agree with you the China should be more tough on future Russian deals. However at this stage I feel that one side has to be the one to "take the high road", and why can't that side be China?
 
A

AeroEngineer

Junior Member
Ok here is what I have found lately on this Su-35 issue.

China and Russia have NOT signed any deal for over 10 years now and China's new leader wants a strong Sino-Russo relationship to counter US influence in the region. We all see what happen in the past two years where USA is plotting war agains China with Vietnam and its pupput Japan. Therefore, it is possible that China might buy some Su-35 to please Russia, in exchange for military allience !

China felt threaten. China knows that it can destory the Japanese self defence air force. However, US has deployed F-22A in Okinawa, and it outclassed anything China has now. China wants to put J-20 into early production and in order to do that it requires an interim engine . We all know that WS-15 is only starting to be tested on J-20 prototypes, it is at least 6 years away from production. The best interim engine China can get is the 117S it has 145KN of thrust and 3d TVC compare to just 130KN for the WS-10A and 125KN for the AL-31FN, plus none of them have TVC. However, Russia is not going to give it up unless China buys some Su-35 !!!

Therefore, China buys 24 Su-35 and gets 117S engine and J-20A goes IOC in 2016. By early 2017 China has about 30 J-20A in operation, enough to DESTORY the entire Japanese airforce and deal with the F-22A in Okinawa !

__________________________________________________________

Russia: China please please I beg you to buy some Su-35, it is my best fighter and no one wants it. If you dont buy it then I can not sell it.

China: Ok, I only wants 4 Su-35.

Russia: No, at least 48 !!

China: Ok, I will buy 24 but you must aggree some conditions:

1. Sell me S-400, I really want that.
2. Provide a large amount (about 240) of 117S engine as an interim engine for J-20A.
3. Brand new IL-476 and IL-78M tanker !!

Russia: Ok, 24 Su-35 is fine. If you buy Su-35 I will sell you S-400. The new IL-476 and IL-78M will be priced as new items. On top of that, I will sell you my latest SSK, the Lada class. Two being build here in Russia and the other two in China. I will also provide full Tot of the Lada to you for only 2 billion USD.


China: DEAL !!!


_________________________________________________

In the end, China spend 1.5 billion USD getting 24 Su-35 plus large amount of 117S for J-20A, getting some S-400 to deal with Taiwan. Plus IL-78M tanker to boost strike capability. (Note, China deploy S-400 near Taiwan strait is enough to whip out the entire Taiwanese airforce with out even need to sending a fighter, because of its long range almost 400KM)

Win-Win deal for both countries. Russia finially gets a sales for its " super fighter" Su-35 and can advertise it. China got what she wants as well !

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SinoSoldier

SinoSoldier

Colonel
AeroEngineer said:
Ok here is what I have found lately on this Su-35 issue.

China and Russia have NOT signed any deal for over 10 years now and China's new leader wants a strong Sino-Russo relationship to counter US influence in the region. We all see what happen in the past two years where USA is plotting war agains China with Vietnam and its pupput Japan. Therefore, it is possible that China might buy some Su-35 to please Russia, in exchange for military allience !

China felt threaten. China knows that it can destory the Japanese self defence air force. However, US has deployed F-22A in Okinawa, and it outclassed anything China has now. China wants to put J-20 into early production and in order to do that it requires an interim engine . We all know that WS-15 is only starting to be tested on J-20 prototypes, it is at least 6 years away from production. The best interim engine China can get is the 117S it has 145KN of thrust and 3d TVC compare to just 130KN for the WS-10A and 125KN for the AL-31FN, plus none of them have TVC. However, Russia is not going to give it up unless China buys some Su-35 !!!

Therefore, China buys 24 Su-35 and gets 117S engine and J-20A goes IOC in 2016. By early 2017 China has about 30 J-20A in operation, enough to DESTORY the entire Japanese airforce and deal with the F-22A in Okinawa !

__________________________________________________________

Russia: China please please I beg you to buy some Su-35, it is my best fighter and no one wants it. If you dont buy it then I can not sell it.

China: Ok, I only wants 4 Su-35.

Russia: No, at least 48 !!

China: Ok, I will buy 24 but you must aggree some conditions:

1. Sell me S-400, I really want that.
2. Provide a large amount (about 240) of 117S engine as an interim engine for J-20A.
3. Brand new IL-476 and IL-78M tanker !!

Russia: Ok, 24 Su-35 is fine. If you buy Su-35 I will sell you S-400. The new IL-476 and IL-78M will be priced as new items. On top of that, I will sell you my latest SSK, the Lada class. Two being build here in Russia and the other two in China. I will also provide full Tot of the Lada to you for only 2 billion USD.


China: DEAL !!!


_________________________________________________

In the end, China spend 1.5 billion USD getting 24 Su-35 plus large amount of 117S for J-20A, getting some S-400 to deal with Taiwan. Plus IL-78M tanker to boost strike capability. (Note, China deploy S-400 near Taiwan strait is enough to whip out the entire Taiwanese airforce with out even need to sending a fighter, because of its long range almost 400KM)

Win-Win deal for both countries. Russia finially gets a sales for its " super fighter" Su-35 and can advertise it. China got what she wants as well !

>
>
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Don't you think that things like gas deals and energy investments are a much more significant testimony to "friendship" than a few fighters that Russia fears some parts of which might be reverse engineered? One provides significant and long term economic advantages for Russia while the other might not, especially when they'll be on par with J-11B.
 
A

AeroEngineer

Junior Member
SinoSoldier said:
Don't you think that things like gas deals and energy investments are a much more significant testimony to "friendship" than a few fighters that Russia fears some parts of which might be reverse engineered? One provides significant and long term economic advantages for Russia while the other might not, especially when they'll be on par with J-11B.
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Correct, but there are other things China want from Russia as I have mentioned:

1. 117S engine, an interim solution for J-20A. China want J-20A goes into IOC by 2016, and the best and aviable engine will be 117S !! We all know that WS-15 will not be ready until 2018 the earilest !!

2. S-400. China clearly wants it. But Russia is not willing to sell it at least not NOW unless China buys Su-35.

3. New IL-476 and IL-78M tankers.


Buying 24 Su-35, and China unlock the doors for all these systems. Why NOT ???

If not, then :

1. China use WS-10A or AL-31FN for J-20A, it will work, but J-20A will not be as good when fitted with 117S !!
2. Russia eventually sell S-400, but until 2017. China wants S-400 NOW so that by 2016 it can use it against Taiwan !
3. China has Y-20, but Y-20 will not be ready until 2017 the earilest !! Getting some new IL-476 and convert them into brand new KJ-2000. KJ-2000 and IL-78M are something China really needs !!

______________________________________________________


Now, finially. I too oppose the idea of buying Su-35. It is utterly useless !!

However, Russia is not letting go other systems that China wants unless China buys some Su-35. Russia has already back down from 48 to just 24. How much more do you exptect Russia to back down !!
 
SteelBird

SteelBird

Colonel
AeroEngineer said:
Now, finially. I too oppose the idea of buying Su-35. It is utterly useless !!

However, Russia is not letting go other systems that China wants unless China buys some Su-35. Russia has already back down from 48 to just 24. How much more do you exptect Russia to back down !!
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2 would be too much enough for China. Just my suggestion :D;)
 
K

kroko

Senior Member
AeroEngineer said:
Ok here is what I have found lately on this Su-35 issue.

China and Russia have NOT signed any deal for over 10 years now and China's new leader wants a strong Sino-Russo relationship to counter US influence in the region. We all see what happen in the past two years where USA is plotting war agains China with Vietnam and its pupput Japan. Therefore, it is possible that China might buy some Su-35 to please Russia, in exchange for military allience !

China felt threaten. China knows that it can destory the Japanese self defence air force. However, US has deployed F-22A in Okinawa, and it outclassed anything China has now. China wants to put J-20 into early production and in order to do that it requires an interim engine . We all know that WS-15 is only starting to be tested on J-20 prototypes, it is at least 6 years away from production. The best interim engine China can get is the 117S it has 145KN of thrust and 3d TVC compare to just 130KN for the WS-10A and 125KN for the AL-31FN, plus none of them have TVC. However, Russia is not going to give it up unless China buys some Su-35 !!!

Therefore, China buys 24 Su-35 and gets 117S engine and J-20A goes IOC in 2016. By early 2017 China has about 30 J-20A in operation, enough to DESTORY the entire Japanese airforce and deal with the F-22A in Okinawa !

__________________________________________________________

Russia: China please please I beg you to buy some Su-35, it is my best fighter and no one wants it. If you dont buy it then I can not sell it.

China: Ok, I only wants 4 Su-35.

Russia: No, at least 48 !!

China: Ok, I will buy 24 but you must aggree some conditions:

1. Sell me S-400, I really want that.
2. Provide a large amount (about 240) of 117S engine as an interim engine for J-20A.
3. Brand new IL-476 and IL-78M tanker !!

Russia: Ok, 24 Su-35 is fine. If you buy Su-35 I will sell you S-400. The new IL-476 and IL-78M will be priced as new items. On top of that, I will sell you my latest SSK, the Lada class. Two being build here in Russia and the other two in China. I will also provide full Tot of the Lada to you for only 2 billion USD.


China: DEAL !!!


_________________________________________________

In the end, China spend 1.5 billion USD getting 24 Su-35 plus large amount of 117S for J-20A, getting some S-400 to deal with Taiwan. Plus IL-78M tanker to boost strike capability. (Note, China deploy S-400 near Taiwan strait is enough to whip out the entire Taiwanese airforce with out even need to sending a fighter, because of its long range almost 400KM)

Win-Win deal for both countries. Russia finially gets a sales for its " super fighter" Su-35 and can advertise it. China got what she wants as well !

>
>
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Russia has no intention of getting itself involved in china´s problems in asia.

The US is not plotting war against china. No nation goes to war to please any other nation. Besides, that would be WWIII. Are you serious?

China can destroy JSDAF ?? what makes you say that ?

WS-15 getting tested on J-20? Where are the pictures? Any pictures of wS-15 for that matter?

30 J-20 can destroy JSDAF and stand against F-22 ???

If you fire S-400 from Chinese coast, by the time they arrive in Taiwan, they will have almost no flight time left, and will be easily defeated.


About this sale of Su-35 to china:
I found myself trusting more Russian sources than chinese sources. I knew that as long as nothing appeared in Russian sources, that there was no deal on anything, because those sources would put them in the headlines the moment they heard about it. No news in Russian sources, no deal.

Despite all the fuss, the Chinese MoD still hasn’t confirmed nor denied these rumors. Even Chinese “ big shrimps” said that there would be a deal, or at least that’s what thpuang said. Yet no deal happened this time. And people who said previously in this forum that there was no way that china would buy Su-35 suddenly got very worried about it.

Something to think about.
 
SampanViking

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Well clearly Beijing sees the deal as desirable and I can see a variety of reasons that build the final decision.

For those who still doubt the genuine nature of the agreement, please note all that any officials on either side are denying is that the deal is signed, not that a deal exists and is on the table.

I am somewhat disappointed by the disparaging attitude of some posters to Russian Military Technology. China may well be pulling ahead in many critical areas, but they are still behind in others and if these are areas; system, subsystem, production techniques etc, which China can catch up from this purchase, then I say fine, why bother trying to reinvent wheels that others have found perfectly good and working solutions too and save all the time and money.

I also suspect time is a new critical factor in all this as the security situation in the Pacific East is undoubtedly deteriorating, with the re-pivot upsetting the strategic balance. In that sense a show of greater solidarity between the two Asian powers sends a powerful signal to the region as to be under no illusions or make serious strategic miscalculations.
 
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