Chinese purchase of Su-35

R

Richard Santos

Captain
Registered Member
ougoah said:
Why didn't they just pay cash up front then instead of purchasing a logistics problem? I do agree on the second part though. Russian engine tech isn't too much better nowadays. Their best stuff is built on 70s tech and they lost a lot of know how and skills to Ukraine.
Click to expand...

Becaus;

1. the Chinese would be loath to be seen paying cash for no goods in return.

2. The Russians would make it a point for the Chinese to be seen buying the Su-35, because china is no ordinary fighter customer, but a up and coming superpower with a formidable military aircraft industry of her own capable of supplying many of the very same customers to whom the Russians may hope to sell the su-35. What can give su-35 more credibility than if even the Chinese are buying the planes for themselves?

Keep in mind the hot section of the most advanced fighter engine operating today were but designed in the early 1980s. Having engine technology comparable to those of Cold War superpowers of the 1970s is nothing to laugh at. Engine design is a very specialized skill set that does not benefit much from general advancement in overall technology. It is a indication of just how much the Cold war superpowers invested in this specialized field that that their design from 40 years ago still have no real rivals from other countries even today.
 
Last edited:
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
taxiya said:
Weapons are different from cars or TVs. One must be able to able to produce locally without any limitations at her will, think about replacing destroyed weapon in a battle.

Buying weapon in big numbers is only a "desperation" when China can not make it, like the 200 Su-37 and 50 Su-30 deals in the 1990s.

Buying more because it is good is never an option no matter how good the weapon may be.

People arguing "one shot" believe that 1. Su-35 is not something that standing out against potential rival (F-35). 2. China is not as "desperate" as in 1990s. Both point make Su-35 deal different from the earlier deals. Therefor the small number and maybe no more.

China stopped further purchasing Flankers from Russia after the 250 pieces when China began to produce J-11 and J-16. That tells us that even if China wanted to introduce Su-35 into PLA, the buying from Russia will be very limited, one shot or two shots won't be much difference. The Russian willingness to let China produce it locally is almost zero. Then there is the more important issue of Su-35 not being a match to F-35, only slightly better than J-16, this capability is not convincing to accept the logistic troubles.
Click to expand...

Producing locally is all well and good, but that doesn't mean China can't purchase some weapon systems to fill certain gaps.

If China currently does not have anything matching the capabilities of the Su-35 in production, then it makes sense to buy some until they do.
 
J

jobjed

Captain
solarz said:
Producing locally is all well and good, but that doesn't mean China can't purchase some weapon systems to fill certain gaps.

If China currently does not have anything matching the capabilities of the Su-35 in production, then it makes sense to buy some until they do.
Click to expand...

What gaps do the PLAAF possess that can be plugged by the Su-35 and nothing else?
 
Hyperwarp

Hyperwarp

Captain
jobjed said:
What gaps do the PLAAF possess that can be plugged by the Su-35 and nothing else?
Click to expand...

There are roughly 170 (maybe more) 5th and 4.5 gen fighters in the PLAAF (J-20, J-16, J-10B/C, Su-35). There is gap between J-20, J-10B/C, J-16 and the older 4th gen fighters especially the flankers. There are large numbers of Su-27SK/UBK, J-11/11A, J-11B.

As of this moment, the potential adversaries will have F-22, F-15C/J, F/A-18E/F, F-16/F-2, Su-30MKI and more. If all of them gang up against the PRC, things will not go well for the PLAAF. F-35 might also come in to play. I am leaving out the F-15E/K for the moment. Over 500 Super-hornets have been built and majority of them with the USN. I do not fancy the chances of the J-11 series against the F/A-18E/F. IAF has 230 MKI at its disposal. The J-11D is a mystery right but and upgraded J-11B with some of the J-11D components should fair much better. So there is a gap. The Su-35 alone will not bridge with gap. A J-11B avionics upgrade will even the odds more.

One of the most important uses of the Su-35 is for training. PRC does not have any TVC enabled aircraft. PLAAF needs to develop new tactics, and train its next gen pilots against other TVC enabled adversaries. The USAF and IAF has had more than a decade to develop tactics utilizing the advantages of TVC. Plus if the J-11D fails buying more Su-35 won't hurt.
 
b787

b787

Captain
PanAsian said:
How about China wanted it to be about technology, Russia wanted it to be about politics, but they could only manage to make it about money.
Click to expand...
Politics always are important in this type of deals, but Russia never designed the Su-27 to be exported, it was exported because in the 1990s they needed to survive.

The initial deal was China to buy Su-27SK with Russian components.

They bought a 24 Su-27SK batch for $1 billion dollars value in 1992, pretty cheap, later they signed a deal for $2.6 billion dollars for the license of Su-27SK and China broke the deal.
China and Russia are not allies, they have historical issues such as the ownership of the Russian far east, the Chinese immigration to Russia and Chinese investment in Siberia, pretty much Russia fears China will get Siberia without a shot, just by economic means.

Russia however is engaged in stopping NATO in its western part.
Russia is sandwiched by two military threats, but has chosen the path helping China for two reasons, China while a powerful country lacks the ability to control the world, and militarily is much weaker than NATO.So when they sold Su-27s in 1990 the threat was smaller in 2017, the threat is higher, so they said no to license the Su-35.

But from the point of view of politics, China is not an ally of Russia, simply because one has ambitions over Siberia, and the other never will play second flute to China.
 
Last edited:
A

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
b787 said:
China got license to built Su-27SK, which is basically an early 1980s technology.

in the 1990s Su-27M was the most advanced Flanker, India got the Su-30MKI which was more advanced that the version China got.
Why China bought Su-35?

easy very easy, because Russia advanced too, by 2000, Russia had engines like Al-31FM2 and Al-31FM3, later Russia developed the 117S which left obsolete the engine technology of both Su-27SK and Su-30MKI behind.


In 2017 Russia already has T-30, and very likely Salyut has developed a new variant of engine of Al-31.

This is just engines.

In Radar technology, Su-35 can develop a 400km range because its engine can save the number of bateries, and generate the electricity to boost the range.


Su-35 has also RCS reductions, based upon new materials, it has new airframe architecture, what does it mean? well it allows for 2 tonnes of more fuel internally.


Why China bought Su-35?


Answer making stealth airframes does not make an aircraft stealthy, but a combination of technologies among them electronic warfare and a lot of the engine technology makes an aircraft a 5th generation.

Why? supercruise is a factor some reports say Su-57 supercruises at 1500 km/h, Su-35 was said to be able to supercruise.

Short take off and landing is also part of the engine.

Superior agility is part of the engine equation. as well lower drag and longer range.

The new aircraft can also carry more weapons.

can you compare Su-35 to Su-27SK?

Not really, specially Russia this time is charging 2 billion for only 24 pieces, even with inflation, the sum is too high do you remember the license coasted 2.5 billion well it seems Russia is charging what China did not pay ;)
Click to expand...

None of the items you've mentioned, radar, rcs reductions, stol, engines, supercruise etc are really revolutionary compared to the Flankers or J-20 that China is already producing domestically.

There're useful to compare against but then the goal is for SAC to produce something better, rather than keep buying from Russia.
 
b787

b787

Captain
AndrewS said:
There're useful to compare against but then the goal is for SAC to produce something better, rather than keep buying from Russia.
Click to expand...

Let me see.

Su-35 is inferior to J-11? then why you spend 2 billion in them?

That does not make sense.

Why they buy it?

Is not more logic use Aviadarts to see how good is it?

Why buy it if you have a better engine in J-20?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top